# A Reasonable Political, Economic and Social Response To Peak Oil? (and global warming, health care)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [February 4, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732 "2010-02-04T22:43:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/1 "2010-02-04T22:43:10Z")
1. Anyone versed in YouTube can tell you that the present exponential increase in population coupled with the soon to come exponential decrease in the availability of oil fueled by the criminal waste of resources (skimmed by their owners-in-arms) in unsocially productive wars will run us ALL into the Ditch, quicktime. Basically, we (the fucking planet) can’t afford the rich.
2. Change the USA can exemplify to the world?
Once greed is dethroned as virtue, we may progress. I see a cap on net worth tied to minimum wage.
a) Start storing oil. Buy as much as we can, drill responsibly at home and deposit it all in Fuel For Our Kid’s Trust. It’s a limited resource. Let’s name it, claim it and ration it. The rest will follow, 'cause they got kids too.
b) Reduce our usage.
Devote half of our highway lanes to car pools. Hitchiking becomes fashionable, passingthrus are sooner out of town and folks, discovering that they are all in the same boat, will socialize and buy no more car than they need.
Invest heavily in clean alternatives to oil while getting used to rolling brownouts.
The rest? Try me.
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### Author:  [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/2 "2010-02-04T22:57:09Z")
> [@adhay](#):
>
> 1. Anyone versed in YouTube can tell you that the present exponential increase in population
I’d like a cite for this claim. I was under the impression that the rate of growth is slowing worldwide and that the AIDS crisis will impact overall population levels.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/3 "2010-02-04T23:31:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Originally Posted by adhay
>
> 1. Anyone versed in YouTube can tell you that the present exponential increase in population
> [@BrightNShiny](#):
>
> I’d like a cite for this claim. I was under the impression that the rate of growth is slowing worldwide and that the AIDS crisis will impact overall population levels.
Wars help too.
Ok, instead of population. let’s talk about the burgeoning energy requirements of the emerging global consumer class, cars, clean water and tvs for all. I’m sure there’s an exponent in there somewhere.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/4 "2010-02-04T23:40:23Z")
What’s oil for if you don’t use it? And in any case peak oil doesn’t mean that the tap is going to run dry at a certain date. It means that it will get progressively more expensive until demand drops or alternatives become cheaper. The free market, like democracy, is the second-worst system, the worst being every other system ever tried. Rationing resources has never worked.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/5 "2010-02-04T23:41:28Z")
The OP obviously doesn’t know what ‘exponential growth’ entails…or is being hyperbolic. But then, based on the loony-toons ‘solutions’, I’m guessing most have figured that out already. Which is probably why there haven’t been a lot of responses thus far…
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Anyone versed in YouTube can tell you that the present exponential increase in population coupled with the soon to come exponential decrease in the availability of oil fueled by the criminal waste of resources (skimmed by their owners-in-arms) in unsocially productive wars will run us ALL into the Ditch, quicktime.
See, there is your problem…you are getting your information from YouTube. Neither population nor resources track by exponential growth curves (either positive or negative). Oil (which I presume is what you are on about…and to further qualify, you probably mean cheap, easily accessible LSC oil), is not decreasing exponentially.
> [@](#):
>
> Basically, we (the fucking planet) can’t afford the rich.
Um…too be sure. Evil horrible rich who use up all the oil. Definitely bad. Or something. Yes…quite…
> [@](#):
>
> 1. Change the USA can exemplify to the world?
Right. Everyone wants to be like us after all. And they are all just waiting to see what we do so that they can know what’s best. So, let’s see what you think is best, ehe?
> [@](#):
>
> Once greed is dethroned as virtue, we may progress. I see a cap on net worth tied to minimum wage.
Ah…I see your plan. Brilliant. What you want us to do is to shoot ourselves collectively in the head and commit economic suicide! And, seeing us blow ourselves apart the rest of the world will leap at the chance to do the same! And then, the survivors will have all the oil they could possibly want! Brilliant! Masterful! Now, how to get the plan into action…
> [@](#):
>
> a) Start storing oil. Buy as much as we can, drill responsibly at home and deposit it all in Fuel For Our Kid’s Trust. It’s a limited resource. Let’s name it, claim it and ration it. The rest will follow, 'cause they got kids too.
Er…ok. The less said about this one the better as it’s too sad to even make fun of properly.
> [@](#):
>
> b) Reduce our usage.
Good idea. And if you manage to get the US to commit economic hari kari then I’d say you will go a long way to achieving this, as the survivors are sure to use a lot less oil…and everything else.
> [@](#):
>
> Devote half of our highway lanes to car pools. Hitchiking becomes fashionable, passingthrus are sooner out of town and folks, discovering that they are all in the same boat, will socialize and buy no more car than they need.
Sure…we can all sing kumbaya too. Here, have another toke on this… _puff puff_
> [@](#):
>
> Invest heavily in clean alternatives to oil while getting used to rolling brownouts.
What would the point be, since if we listened to your earlier plan and were actually frothing at the mouth mad enough to implement it there wouldn’t BE a country. Well, except for the Peak Oil folks who will cleverly avoid the fall of our civilization and become the rugged survivalists, struggling valiantly in the wild while being in tune with nature and researching alternative energy in the evenings around the camp fire (are they going to be allowed fire btw? This part of the plan is unclear)…
> [@](#):
>
> The rest? Try me.
I shudder to think that there is more. I’d rather not try you, as I can only take so much crazy at any one sitting.
-XT
---
### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/6 "2010-02-05T00:27:59Z")
The population doesn’t grow exponentially though. It is set to stabilize at around 10 billion around 2050 (assuming we don’t dramatically expand lifespan).
As far as oil, I don’t know how fast the decline is but I think it’ll be 1-5% a year.
If it is a 3% decline a year, that is a global shortfall of about 2.4 million barrels/day per year, and 600,000 in the US.
So we’d have to cut demand, increase supply from alternative sources of oil (biofuel, tar sands, coal, etc) or use different energies (coal, plug in hybrids, etc) to match that decline.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/7 "2010-02-05T00:48:00Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> What’s oil for if you don’t use it?
if it’s used for anything but fueling and greasing the next few generations into reduced consumption and alternative energy sources, it’s being misused.
> [@](#):
>
> And in any case peak oil doesn’t mean that the tap is going to run dry at a certain date.
I’m thinking 2050 at the latest.
> [@](#):
>
> It means that it will get progressively more expensive until demand drops or alternatives become cheaper.
Who should pocket the difference?
> [@](#):
>
> The free market, like democracy, is the second-worst system, the worst being every other system ever tried.
Is it working for what we used to call the middle class?
> [@](#):
>
> Rationing resources has never worked.
We have never before faced the so obvious need for conservation of a finite resource.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/8 "2010-02-05T02:53:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> The OP obviously doesn’t know what ‘exponential growth’ entails…or is being hyperbolic. But then, based on the loony-toons ‘solutions’, I’m guessing most have figured that out already. Which is probably why there haven’t been a lot of responses thus far…
I’m predicting an exponential increase in interest.
> [@](#):
>
> See, there is your problem…you are getting your information from YouTube. Neither population nor resources track by exponential growth curves (either positive or negative). Oil (which I presume is what you are on about…and to further qualify, you probably mean cheap, easily accessible LSC oil), is not decreasing exponentially.
Not yet, but soon. While profit trumps humanity, the results become more disastrous.
> [@](#):
>
> Um…too be sure. Evil horrible rich who use up all the oil. Definitely bad. Or something. Yes…quite…
These are the folks who will settle for being the last ones to starve on a stripped planet. They’ll be good for a while in their 100K acre alpine glens with natural hydro/geothermal resources, state of the art wind and solar technology, the last 1000 deep cycle batteries ever to be manufactured and 1000 Mexicans selectively bred to stoop happily on Tequila for a fair share of the fields.
Security provided by Gitmo Architects, Haliburton and Blackwater, with help from ChainLink and RazorWire. These guys are the Patriots and sit just below the salt with the house niggers and get to fuck the Mexicans. Beats workin’.
This is, at the moment, our destined end. Oh, there will be other medium-term survivors, ranchers,farmers and blacksmiths geographically collected and cooperating for the local common good in sunny, reliably watered, fertile valleys. I’m suggesting we encourage this as a lifestyle and get more people involved.
> [@](#):
>
> Right. Everyone wants to be like us after all. And they are all just waiting to see what we do so that they can know what’s best. So, let’s see what you think is best, ehe?
As I’ve said …
> [@](#):
>
> Ah…I see your plan. Brilliant. What you want us to do is to shoot ourselves collectively in the head and commit economic suicide! And, seeing us blow ourselves apart the rest of the world will leap at the chance to do the same! And then, the survivors will have all the oil they could possibly want! Brilliant! Masterful! Now, how to get the plan into action…
De-institutionalize greed.
> [@](#):
>
> … What would the point be, since if we listened to your earlier plan and were actually frothing at the mouth mad enough to implement it there wouldn’t BE a country.
Pretty much. It would be a global network of sustainable communities weaning themselves from oil.
> [@](#):
>
> Well, except for the Peak Oil folks who will cleverly avoid the fall of our civilization and become the rugged survivalists, struggling valiantly in the wild while being in tune with nature and researching alternative energy in the evenings around the camp fire (are they going to be allowed fire btw? This part of the plan is unclear)…
See above.
> [@](#):
>
> I shudder to think that there is more. I’d rather not try you, as I can only take so much crazy at any one sitting.
>
> -XT
Tough luck, buster. Let’s provide UHC while we’re at it.
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### Author:  [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/9 "2010-02-05T02:58:01Z")
Why go to college when you have You Tube? I’m gonna major in lolcats.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/10 "2010-02-05T03:02:00Z")
> [@adhay](#):
>
> We have never before faced the so obvious need for conservation of a finite resource.
If we want people to conserve oil, pumping it and storing it isn’t the most efficient way to do it. Just tax the use of oil, and people will naturally use less of it.
There’s no point in squirreling away spare barrels of oil for future use as if we were stocking the pantry shelves with canned goods. If we haven’t come up with adequate substitutes for oil by the time we run low enough on it to see significant price spikes, having a few extra barrels down cellar won’t be enough to ease the economic pain for any substantial length of time.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/11 "2010-02-05T03:14:09Z")
> [@DanBlather](#):
>
> Why go to college when you have You Tube? I’m gonna major in lolcats.
Consider yourself an honorary PHD.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/12 "2010-02-05T03:25:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> If we want people to conserve oil, pumping it and storing it isn’t the most efficient way to do it. Just tax the use of oil, and people will naturally use less of it.
Right. Start by doing away with depreciation allowances.
> [@](#):
>
> There’s no point in squirreling away spare barrels of oil for future use as if we were stocking the pantry shelves with canned goods.
To feed a man for a day, give him a can opener. Teach him to cultivate and can and he’ll get thru the winter.
> [@](#):
>
> If we haven’t come up with adequate substitutes for oil by the time we run low enough on it to see significant price spikes, having a few extra barrels down cellar won’t be enough to ease the economic pain for any substantial length of time.
Quite so but they’d grease lots of buggy wheels.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/13 "2010-02-05T04:13:56Z")
Lunacy and frivolity are a bad combination in the Great Debates forum, and risk running afoul of the mods’ “joke thread” filter. If you’re going to post a nutty OP and follow it up with nutty observations, you should at least appear to be taking them seriously. Just a friendly hint.
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/14 "2010-02-05T04:36:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Lunacy and frivolity are a bad combination in the Great Debates forum, and risk running afoul of the mods’ “joke thread” filter. If you’re going to post a nutty OP and follow it up with nutty observations, you should at least appear to be taking them seriously. Just a friendly hint.
Lunacy and frivolity are precisely what I’ve been arguing against. Seriously.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/15 "2010-02-05T14:22:05Z")
[QUOTE=adhay]
I’m predicting an exponential increase in interest.
[/QUOTE]
It seems that, as with your other predictions, you are a bit, um, off. I’d say that this has to do with your rather dubious grasp of what the term ‘exponential growth’ means and implies, but I’m thinking that the ‘dubious grasp’ part runs a bit…deeper.
-XT
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/16 "2010-02-05T15:29:09Z")
> [@xtisme](#):
>
> It seems that, as with your other predictions, you are a bit, um, off. I’d say that this has to do with your rather dubious grasp of what the term ‘exponential growth’ means and implies, but I’m thinking that the ‘dubious grasp’ part runs a bit…deeper.
>
> -XT
Perhaps this will help. It’s A talk given by Dr. Albert Barlett Professor Emeritus Department of Physics University of Colorado at Boulder [“Arithmetic, Population and Energy”](http://www.type1civilization.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4:drbartlett&catid=10:video)
It’s posted on YouTube in 8 9+min segments. I have not been able to find the complete lecture anywhere but in the cite, the 8 segments are collected.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/17 "2010-02-06T02:40:08Z")
> [@adhay](#):
>
> a) Start storing oil.
I do that now.
It could be worse.
Some people are into footwear. :o
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### Author:  [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-reasonable-political-economic-and-social-response-to-peak-oil-and-global-warming-health-care/527732/18 "2010-02-06T04:05:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> I do that now.
>
> It could be worse.
>
> Some people are into footwear. :o
Plastic shopping bags and bic lighters will be hot trade items.