# A response to Richard Dawkins' argument against the existence of God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544 "2009-10-21T00:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/281 "2009-11-13T09:46:35Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, as I said, I think that the philosophical debate about whether God is necessary has dead-ended due to conflicting premises. For instance, on the definition of complexity, **begbert** insists on using the definition based on information, common in computer science, but which very few people would think of as applying to God. There’s been quite a bit written about whether God must be complex or not based on the properties that theologians ascribe to him, but that debate simply doesn’t intersect with someone who wants to import a definition from computer science. You’re underestimating the broadness of the concept a little here – information and informational complexity are not something limited to computers (and neither is computer science, at least not anymore); indeed, I can’t really think of any domain where they aren’t important in some way. Some people go as far as claiming that information is what the world is made of – i.e. that it’s the truly fundamental quantity. Whenever a thing is distinct from another, or can exist in distinct states, there’s information in that distinction, so, any properties a thing has are carriers of information. Information is, it would seem to me, even carried in the distinction between existence and non-existence; so I’m a bit hard pressed to see something existing without any relation to information theoretical concepts. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is that to have any understanding of what theologians believe, one must be able to expand one’s thinking to not be trapped by the physical laws and material nature that we happen to be born with. It’s an entirely reasonable position to say that this isn’t possible, and whenever you think you’re doing this, you’re merely deceiving yourself – after all, the existence of something ‘beyond’ the physical laws and the material is kind off the topic of this thread, so to claim that one must expand one’s thinking to contemplate this ‘beyond’ seems highly question-begging (just as one cannot meaningfully contemplate four-sided triangles – something beyond the physical might be as impossible and illogical, a possibility which at least can’t be discounted off-hand). > [@](#): > > That’s why, despite numerous claims that Dawkins’ argument “uses the theists’ own beliefs”, it’s not convincing. In fact it’s pretty spare on any addressing of points made by supporters of the argument from design, and certainly steers far clear of the strongest versions of that argument. (And the same could be said for a lot of posts in this thread.) Those making the argument from design have addressed, at length, why they believe that a creator is a better explanation for the properties of the universe than an uncreated universe. I’ve not been paying too close attention to all the back and forth in this thread, but why don’t you just present/point me towards some stronger versions of this argument – so far, all I’ve actually seen in support of it is that ‘either existence popped into being out of nothingness, or else there is something eternal’, which I believe poses a false dichotomy (I’ve addressed it [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11709488&postcount=132), in case you missed it). ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/282 "2009-11-13T10:11:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for about religious experiences, I’ve already explained what I’d like to see explained, namely why healthy, intelligent, well-gathered and collected people would devote their lives to something that is not real. Well, they don’t – the religious institutions they devote themselves to, the causes they take up, the social structures of belief, worship etc. are all very real, it’s just that they are constructed by people, that what’s claimed to exist behind those structures doesn’t necessarily. Compare it with money – it exists as a social construct without the need of any central value-giver, but is instead determined by market variables, which are a proxy for social beliefs. Money ‘isn’t real’ in the sense that absent the belief in its value, it is meaningless, much like religious structures (for a concrete example, just look at all the ruined temples to gods nobody even remembers the names of anymore), yet there are certainly people (some of them even sane) who devote their lives to it. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/283 "2009-11-13T11:34:45Z")
Actually, **ITR** , can you just remind me what your answer was to **Mangetout** ’s question immediately below your OP ont he very first page? I don’t feel you’ve answered it at all, and it cuts right though everything you’ve said for the past 6 pages. And if you’re going to have a go at Dennett, you might as well get the full picture. I’ve already recommended Boyer’s [Religion Explained](http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0465006965/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used), so you might as well try Dennett’s [Consciousness Explained](http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0316180661/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used) also. (Not very imaginative with their titles, these sciencey types!) They will take a few weeks (or even months) to read carefully, but these two books are literally perhaps the best $15 I’ve every spent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2021, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/285 "2021-05-31T01:07:29Z")
Hasn’t been on in almost a year. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/290 "2021-09-26T12:45:44Z")
Whatever happened to @SentientMeat? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/291 "2021-09-26T13:17:30Z")
Last posted in '09. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/292 "2021-09-26T15:14:55Z")
~~Removed sock quote, {WE?}~~ I couldn’t find my copy, but [Amazon’s copy](https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/055277331X?asin=055277331X&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1) has the word “God”. Are they in on the conspiracy and/or less afraid of God? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544/293 "2021-09-27T14:18:04Z")
Well, I miss that guy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-response-to-richard-dawkins-argument-against-the-existence-of-god/514544.md?page=14)