# A ridiculous end to a ridiculous "trial" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034 "2010-11-01T00:52:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/81 "2010-11-01T18:17:14Z")
I wonder what a 15 yr. old American youth would receive for a conviction of murder and planting explosive devices on an American road? How far would his “my parents wanted me to” defense would go in mitigating his sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/82 "2010-11-01T18:23:54Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I wonder what a 15 yr. old American youth would receive for a conviction of murder and planting explosive devices on an American road? How far would his “my parents wanted me to” defense would go in mitigating his sentence? If he was doing it against an invading army, probably quite a lot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/83 "2010-11-01T18:27:59Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > They did shoot him. At least twice… In the back. While he was kneeling. And wounded. Blind in one eye. > [@](#): > > …OC-1 saw Khadr crouched on his knees facing away from the action and wounded by shrapnel that had just permanently blinded his left eye,[46] and shot him twice in the back.[45]… > [@](#): > > …And then they saved his life. Would you have rather they left him there to bleed to death?.. There’s a special word for that sort of argument, you’re probably aware of it. You have likely used the term to disparage arguments that were weak and prejudicial. You were right to do so. > [@](#): > > …Yes, we judge them by our standards. And by the UN standards… > [@](#): > > …and a “militia”, composed of approximately twenty[41] Afghan fighters loyal to mercenary warlord Pacha Khan Zadran… I am unaware of any UN standards that sanction the legitimacy of mercenary warriors. Advise. > [@](#): > > …If you want to take Al Qaeda or the Taliban’s side on the war there, by all means, do so. Me, I think you’ve gotta be seriously fucked in the head to take their side, but I guess someone’s gotta do it. Please, please tell me that you’re not going down this road. That those who question or protest our government’s actions are traitors and working for the enemy. Let me ask just this once: do you totally believe the government’s case here? No questions, no doubts, just rock solid faith. Ever hear of a “body count”? How about a “Viet Cong water buffalo”? From whence your certainty? What uniform does truth wear? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/84 "2010-11-01T18:28:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Translation: He didn’t lie down and die before American soldiers like he was supposed to. > > Since when is shooting at an invading army a criminal matter? > > Garbage. Why should anyone accept the word of a bunch of torturers and thugs about what he was doing? And again; since when did shooting at an invading army count as a crime? Well gee **Der Trish** I’m amazed that you have a condemning opinion of the US military. Tell you what. Next time you respond just type. Blah.Blah,Blah We all know what you’re going to say anyway. Save yourself some keystrokes. Then you can go back to whacking off as you read the military casualty reports. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/85 "2010-11-01T18:32:15Z")
And of course you carefully avoid answering my questions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/86 "2010-11-01T18:33:23Z")
**BubaDog:** I’ll ask you the same question: Do you totally believe the government’s case here? No questions, no doubts, just rock solid faith. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/87 "2010-11-01T18:34:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If he was doing it against an invading army, probably quite a lot. He wasn’t doing it against an invading army, though. The guy lived in Canada and Pakistan. He joined Al Qaeda and traveled from Pakistan to Afghanistan to fight. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/88 "2010-11-01T18:37:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > …He joined Al Qaeda … Cite? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/89 "2010-11-01T18:38:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I wonder what a 15 yr. old American youth would receive for a conviction of murder and planting explosive devices on an American road? How far would his “my parents wanted me to” defense would go in mitigating his sentence? True. But I also find it highly unlikely (nay, possibly even unconstitutional) that a 15 year old American youth would have been detained for 8 years prior to trial, and presumably said youth would have been afforded the protection of the US constitution at his trial. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/90 "2010-11-01T18:41:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He wasn’t doing it against an invading army, though. Of course he was. What did you think the Americans were doing there, vacationing? Where the kid came from is irrelevant, unless you think that American WWII vets should be prosecuted for shooting German soldiers on French soil. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/91 "2010-11-01T18:43:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **BubaDog:** > I’ll ask you the same question: > > Do you totally believe the government’s case here? No questions, no doubts, just rock solid faith. I have no idea if I do. I wasn’t in a position to hear the government and defense witnesses, weigh their credibility and decide what to believe. But for the same reason, I don’t discount them. Nothing about their offer of proof seems inherently incredible, so that it must be disbelieved. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/92 "2010-11-01T18:47:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course he was. What did you think the Americans were doing there, vacationing? Where the kid came from is irrelevant, unless you think that American WWII vets should be prosecuted for shooting German soldiers on French soil. Did the kid enter a foreign country with the intent of battling American troops? How can that be irrelevant? It’s not like he’s defending his homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/93 "2010-11-01T18:51:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course he was. What did you think the Americans were doing there, vacationing? Where the kid came from is irrelevant, unless you think that American WWII vets should be prosecuted for shooting German soldiers on French soil. We didn’t invade his country. We invaded another country and he decided he was going to join the fight against us. And US WWII vets were soldiers in the army in a country at war against Germany. This kid wasn’t a soldier in any country’s army, and Pakistan isn’t at war against the United States. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/94 "2010-11-01T18:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > …with the intent of battling American troops?.. > [@](#): > > …who needed a Pashto translator during their stay in Khost… You have actual evidence that he was sent as a combatant? Bring. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/95 "2010-11-01T18:52:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the charges against the accused call him an “unprivileged enemy belligerent.” This is the wording that was created by the Military Commissions Act of 2009, signed by President Obama. It seems clear to me that he fits this definition. Fucking splendid work there, from the department of tautological process. We think what you’re doing is wrong, so we will pass a law against it, thus proving you were wrong. To avoid any comparisons to the self same behaviour on our part, we will claim it’s only wrong if you don’t have a uniform or some other technicality. It makes it all sound so civilized when you claim there are rules. Fuck me, it’s honestly embarrassing. When their guys go somewhere they don’t come from and start shooting people they’re evil scum who must be jailed. When we send people there and start the shooting it’s to protect…oh, I don’t know, something or other. Can’t we just go back to the good old days of imperialism where we just excused everything on the grounds that they’re damned foreigners so don’t count? We’d have saved a fucking fortune on trial costs, and wouldn’t have looked like a bunch of pusses who are obsessed with fooling ourselves into thinking we’re the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/96 "2010-11-01T18:56:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Cite? > **[Canadian militant Omar Khadr revelled in US killing](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11632651)** > > Omar Khadr consoled himself during his detention with memories of killing a US soldier in Afghanistan in 2002, a military tribunal hears. > [@](#): > > He admitted to training for combat, building and planting bombs, attacking US troops in a firefight at a compound in Afghanistan in July 2002, and having worked as a translator for al-Qaeda and another militant faction. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/97 "2010-11-01T18:56:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Cite? Charging document, Count 1 (Conspiracy), para 21-22: > [@](#): > > 2 1. Omar Ahmed Khadr did, in and around Afghanistan, from on or about June 2002 to > on or about 27 July 2002, willfully and knowingly join an enterprise of persons who > shared a common criminal purpose and conspired and agreed with Usama bin Laden, > Ayman a1 Zawahiri, Sheikh Sayeed a1 Masri, Muhammad Atef (&a Abu Hafs a1 Masri), > Saif a1 adel, Ahmad Sa’id Khadr (&a Abu Al-Rahrnan Al-Kanadi), and various other > members of the a1 Qaida organization, known and unknown, to commit the following > offenses triable by military commission: attacking civilians; attacking civilian objects; > murder by an unprivileged belligerent; destruction of property by an unprivileged > belligerent; and terrorism. > 22. In furtherance of this enterprise and conspiracy, Khadr and other members of a1 > Qaida committed the following overt acts: > a. On or about June 2002, Khadr received approximately one month of one-onone, > private a1 Qaida basic training from an a1 Qaida member named “Abu > Haddi.” This training was arranged by Omar Khadr’s father, Ahmad Sa’id > Khadr, and consisted of training in the use of rocket propelled grenades, rifles, > pistols, hand grenades and explosives. > b. On or about June 2002, Khadr conducted surveillance and reconnaissance > against the U.S. military. Khadr went to an airport near Khost, Afghanistan, > and watched U.S. convoys in support of future attacks against the U.S. > military. > c. On or about July 2002, Khadr received one month of land mine training. > d. On or about July 2002, Khadr joined a group of A1 Qaida operatives and > converted land mines to improvised explosive devices and planted said > improvised explosive devices in the ground where, based on previous > surveillance, U.S. troops were expected to be traveling. > e. On or about July 27,2002, Khadr and other A1 Qaida members engaged U.S. > military personnel when military members surrounded their compound. > During the firefight, Khadr threw a grenade, killing Sergeant First Class > Christopher Speer. In addition to the death of SFC Speer, two Afghan Militia > Force members who were accompanying U.S. Forces were shot and killed and > several U.S. service members were wounded. And he [entered a plea of guilty](http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/25/khadr.plea/), admitting the factual allegations in the charging document: > [@](#): > > He pleaded guilty to murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, two counts of providing material support for terrorism and spying in the United States, a Canadian diplomat said. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/98 "2010-11-01T18:59:17Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Did the kid enter a foreign country with the intent of battling American troops? How can that be irrelevant? It’s not like he’s defending his homeland. It IS irrelevant. Why does it matter in the slightest where he was from? Especially since it wasn’t the homeland of the invading _American_ soldiers either. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And US WWII vets were soldiers in the army in a country at war against Germany. This kid wasn’t a soldier in any country’s army, and Pakistan isn’t at war against the United States. More irrelevancies. What matters is that the Americans were invading. Where he was from or whether or not he had a uniform doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/99 "2010-11-01T19:00:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And he [entered a plea of guilty](http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/10/25/khadr.plea/), admitting the factual allegations in the charging document: Means nothing since he was in the hands of people known to engage in torture. He would have pled guilty to being an agent of the Martian Empire too, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034/100 "2010-11-01T19:02:06Z")
Ah! Excellent! We have a confession! Well, then, that settles everything, doesn’t it? Nothing else to see here, folks, we have a confession! Nothing about that troubles you? Nothing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ridiculous-end-to-a-ridiculous-trial/559034.md?page=6)