# A Rose By Any Other Name...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 11, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077 "2008-01-11T02:43:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/1 "2008-01-11T02:43:47Z")
No, this is NOT a homework question. “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”…that’s William Shakespeare’s position on the subject of love, right? Well, this line has ALWAYS bothered me. What did Shakespeare mean? To me, if Romeo is so smitten by Juliet, then no other rose could ever smell as sweet NOR could any other name be as perfect as the sound of the one I love so deep. (Personally, I think Willie blew it as far as being the hottest romance writer.) What’s the SD? Am I missing something here? Anyone else bothered by this line? It’s been bugging me since 9th grade… - Jinx :mad: ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/2 "2008-01-11T02:46:40Z")
Although this question really does have a definitive answer, you’d probably be better off having it moved to Cafe Society. In any case, what the line means is that a name shouldn’t matter: Juliet is a Capulet, and therefore out of bounds to Romeo. But what does her name matter? If it were Jones or Chang or anything else, wouldn’t she still be the same sweet person? Same as a rose: what if it weren’t called it a rose? Wouldn’t it still smell as sweet? Of course it would. ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/3 "2008-01-11T02:55:49Z")
Oh! I totally missed that interpretation, although I knew that was the main conflcit of the story. You see, I recall Romeo saying so many smitten-like things, like in one scene, “how I wish I were the glove on her hand”, or such, that I guess I thought this was another one of his gushy moments! OK…now I got it! See? If only Shakespeare would have spoken English… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/4 "2008-01-11T02:58:08Z")
The crux of the plot is that they can’t be together just because of their families (their names). Here’s the full passage (bolding mine): > [@Shakespeare](#): > > JULIET > 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy; > Thou art thyself, though not a Montague. > What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot, > Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part > Belonging to a man. O, be some other name! > What’s in a name? **that which we call a rose > By any other name would smell as sweet**; > So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call’d, > Retain that dear perfection which he owes > Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name, > And for that name which is no part of thee > Take all myself. > > ROMEO > I take thee at thy word: > Call me but love, and I’ll be new baptized; > Henceforth I never will be Romeo. > > JULIET > What man art thou that thus bescreen’d in night > So stumblest on my counsel? > > ROMEO > By a name > I know not how to tell thee who I am: > My name, dear saint, is hateful to myself, > Because it is an enemy to thee; > Had I it written, I would tear the word. > > JULIET > My ears have not yet drunk a hundred words > Of that tongue’s utterance, yet I know the sound: > Art thou not Romeo and a Montague? > > ROMEO > Neither, fair saint, if either thee dislike. > > JULIET > How camest thou hither, tell me, and wherefore? > The orchard walls are high and hard to climb, > And the place death, considering who thou art, > If any of my kinsmen find thee here. > > ROMEO > With love’s light wings did I o’er-perch these walls; > For stony limits cannot hold love out, > And what love can do that dares love attempt; > Therefore thy kinsmen are no let to me. > > JULIET > If they do see thee, they will murder thee. In my words: Juliet: “hey, you keep trying to get with me - why won’t you tell me your name?” Romeo: “Well, you’re not gonna like it” Juliet: “Try me!” Romeo: “Ok, it’s Montague. Romeo Montague, of the Montagues your family so hates.” Juliet: “Fuck! I wish you didn’t have that name…What’s in a name anyway? It doesn’t make up a person or anything, like a hand or a foot. And if your name is Montegue and you’re awesome, that’s ok too. If a rose was called Throatwarbler Mangrove, it’d still smell great - there’s nothing special about the word ‘rose’…” Romeo: “I could go by just Romeo if you want. Like Cher. I don’t like being a Montague anyway…” Juliet: “Yeah let’s just forget that our families hate eachother and come up here to my room so we can get it on.” Romeo: “Right ho!” Juliet: “Oh uh but be careful of my family, because THEY care about your name and they might kill you…” Romeo: “…” ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/5 "2008-01-11T03:03:13Z")
Dang, Zipper! Where were you when I was reading this play in 9th grade? I missed a heck of a lot, but then again, all my English teachers had some kind of superiority, inflated ego thing going. Instead of enjoying literature and learning together as a class, it was always “that’s for me to know, and you to find out” attitude. That’s what Honors meant…some honor! I missed out on a heck of a lot, I guess! ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/6 "2008-01-11T03:06:19Z")
Bonus: What does “star-crossed lovers” mean to you? Ill-fated, as if the stars vexed them? Or, does it mean to say they were meant to be in love as destined by the stars themselves? Since they both die, I can see it going either way, but I prefer the latter. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/7 "2008-01-11T03:08:11Z")
“Star-crossed” means crossed by the stars; fated to end tragically. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/8 "2008-01-11T03:08:55Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] Bonus: What does “star-crossed lovers” mean to you? Ill-fated, as if the stars vexed them? Or, does it mean to say they were meant to be in love as destined by the stars themselves? Since they both die, I can see it going either way, but I prefer the latter. [/QUOTE] “Star-crossed” in generally to refer to a relationship doomed by fate. ETA: Damn you, **liss**! ---
**Author:** ![Jinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Jinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jinx)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/9 "2008-01-11T03:15:52Z")
But if Shakespeare believes (or his narrative alter-ego believes) the stars determine our individual fates, then Romeo and Juliet were “star-crossed” in the sense that their paths crossed by destiny. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/10 "2008-01-11T04:37:00Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] But if Shakespeare believes (or his narrative alter-ego believes) the stars determine our individual fates, then Romeo and Juliet were “star-crossed” in the sense that their paths crossed by destiny. [/QUOTE] Crossed here doesn’t refer to physical direction. It’s more like “thwarted.” The stars crossed (thwarted) the lovers, so that they were doomed never to be together no matter what they did. Nothing to do with crossing paths except in the most abstruse metaphorical sense. ---
**Author:** ![WoodenTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@WoodenTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodenTaco)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/11 "2008-01-11T04:55:34Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Drake] Crossed here doesn’t refer to physical direction. It’s more like “thwarted.” The stars crossed (thwarted) the lovers, so that they were doomed never to be together no matter what they did. Nothing to do with crossing paths except in the most abstruse metaphorical sense. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it’s that abstruse, and its certainly not irrelevant. Lots and lots of stuff Shakespeare says has both literal and metaphorical meaning, and often the interaction between the two creates a whole 'nother level of meaning. This is a big part of the brilliance of Shakespeare. I think Jinx’s interpretation is valid in addition to yours, Dr. Drake. Their stars crossed - they were destined to be together, but their stars crossed them - it was impossible for them to be together. It’s all about the tragedy of their love - they cannot possibly be apart, but they cannot possibly be together. There’s something incredibly poetic and powerful in the trap they are thrown into. The line about star-crossed lovers captures this - no less a force than the stars, emblematic of the inconceivable power of the gods, crosses their fates together, but also keeps them apart. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/12 "2008-01-11T04:59:33Z")
Am I the only person who hopes Shakespeare wrote ‘‘Romeo and Juliet’’ totally tongue-in-cheek? They were a couple starry-eyed horny adolescents in luuuuuurve. I feel like that is what is truly tragic about this drama… the fact that they both died from what was essentially puppy love. Am I the only one who reads it this way? _Hamlet_ is so totally better. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/13 "2008-01-11T05:54:25Z")
**WoodenTaco** , I agree with you in principle, but not with this example. \ Hm. “Star-crossed” is only defined as “thwarted.” A point for me. “Cross” as a verb certainly does have both meanings in Shakespeare. A point, and a much stronger one, for you. Rats, I think you’re probably right. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/14 "2008-01-11T06:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Am I the only person who hopes Shakespeare wrote ‘‘Romeo and Juliet’’ totally tongue-in-cheek? They were a couple starry-eyed horny adolescents in luuuuuurve. I feel like that is what is truly tragic about this drama… the fact that they both died from what was essentially puppy love. Am I the only one who reads it this way? _Hamlet_ is so totally better. [/QUOTE] Wow, I never thought I would see the day a female appreciated Hamlet. That is the ultimate \*dude \*story. Guy wants to go to college, has to kill, has a chick that he wants to get it on with and doesn’t know how, kills some people and and in the meantime convinces his GF she is a whore and causes her to kill herself. I have a new appreciation for you, **olivesmarch4th**. SSG Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/15 "2008-01-11T07:13:22Z")
For 2008, my sister & I are reading all of Shakespeare’s plays. R&J is next week, and I’m not looking forward to it. I don’t remember liking the play, or Romeo, or Juliet 15 years ago, but maybe I’m in a better place to read it now. (btw, if anyone wants to join us in reading them, PM me. We’re doing the discussions by blog) ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/16 "2008-01-11T17:40:44Z")
[QUOTE=Jinx] Dang, Zipper! Where were you when I was reading this play in 9th grade? I missed a heck of a lot, but then again, all my English teachers had some kind of superiority, inflated ego thing going. Instead of enjoying literature and learning together as a class, it was always “that’s for me to know, and you to find out” attitude. That’s what Honors meant…some honor! I missed out on a heck of a lot, I guess! [/QUOTE] When I read it in 9th grade, the play was censored a little. The textbook cut out the part in the next scene where one of Romeo’s family asks where he was last night, for his bed hadn’t been slept in. Romeo replies that, “the sweeter rest was mine,” meaning that he was in Juliet’s bed. My dad had The Complete Works at home, and I was titillated to know that the school didn’t want me to know that part. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/17 "2008-01-11T18:06:29Z")
[QUOTE=SSG Schwartz] Wow, I never thought I would see the day a female appreciated Hamlet. That is the ultimate \*dude \*story. Guy wants to go to college, has to kill, has a chick that he wants to get it on with and doesn’t know how, kills some people and and in the meantime convinces his GF she is a whore and causes her to kill herself. I have a new appreciation for you, **olivesmarch4th**. SSG Schwartz [/QUOTE] I much prefer the tragedies too, though that might be because that’s how I was introduced to Shakespeare. Since I skipped grade 9 English, I missed Romeo and Juliet! I very much enjoy Hamlet, but I _love_ Macbeth! > [@](#): > > Stars, hide your fires! > Let not light see my black and deep desires. > [@](#): > > Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player > That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, > And then is heard no more. It is a tale > Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, > Signifying nothing. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/18 "2008-01-11T18:36:38Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] When I read it in 9th grade, the play was censored a little. The textbook cut out the part in the next scene where one of Romeo’s family asks where he was last night, for his bed hadn’t been slept in. Romeo replies that, “the sweeter rest was mine,” meaning that he was in Juliet’s bed. My dad had The Complete Works at home, and I was titillated to know that the school didn’t want me to know that part. 😛 [/QUOTE] \*Hamlet \* was censored for us. We were reading along in the book while the teacher played a record (yes, it was _that_ long ago) and we all became confused because the book wasn’t matching what was on the record. I think it was the part where Hamlet told Ophelia to “get thee to a nunnery” or some such thing. Basically, he was telling her to get to a whorehouse. Shakespeare was pretty raunchy, if you knew what he was saying. “All cats at night are black” indeed. ---
**Author:** ![WoodenTaco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/45deac/32.png) [@WoodenTaco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WoodenTaco)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/19 "2008-01-11T18:59:41Z")
[QUOTE=mnemosyne] I much prefer the tragedies too, though that might be because that’s how I was introduced to Shakespeare. Since I skipped grade 9 English, I missed Romeo and Juliet! I very much enjoy Hamlet, but I _love_ Macbeth! [/QUOTE] Romeo and Juliet is a tragedy, of course. Maybe it helped me that my 9th grade English teacher started on the book saying “This is _not_ a sappy love story. It’s a brutal _war_ story about two dumb kids who have no clue what they’re doing, and anyone who uses Romeo and Juliet as an example of perfect love has no clue what they are talking about.” You just need to take yourself out of the preconceived understanding of the play as a love story. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077/20 "2008-01-11T20:01:43Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] When I read it in 9th grade, the play was censored a little. The textbook cut out the part in the next scene where one of Romeo’s family asks where he was last night, for his bed hadn’t been slept in. Romeo replies that, “the sweeter rest was mine,” meaning that he was in Juliet’s bed. My dad had The Complete Works at home, and I was titillated to know that the school didn’t want me to know that part. 😛 [/QUOTE] That’s redonkulous! We got to see the Hugh Hefner co-produced version of Hamlet! Complete with Playboy branding and naked witches (actually, ewww on that last part). And Polanski’s version of R&J, complete with naked boy buttcheeks. And the Mel Gibson version of Hamlet. Our teacher actually left the room during the bedroom scene. I don’t blame her, who would want to see Mel Gibson and Glenn Close get it on? I was pretty lucky. Upthread people have mentioned having all the fun of Shakespeare sucked out by bad teachers. I had great ones, and actually got to read out Hamlet’s soliloquy to the class while holding a plastic skull, and reenacted the battle between Hamlet and Laertes with some classmates. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-rose-by-any-other-name/433077.md?page=2)