# A royal title for Winston Churchill **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 15, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721 "2023-04-15T19:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/1 "2023-04-15T19:42:12Z")
Perhaps British 'Dopers can explain. From reading Churchill biographies, at the end of his second term as Prime Minister, it was expected for Elizabeth II to offer him a title, but is was important that he not accept it. I realize he would have to leave the House of Commons, but that would be a personal consideration. What was the reasoning behind offering a title that he should not accept? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/2 "2023-04-15T19:55:51Z")
Not sure about “royal” title, but I think he was offered a dukedom which had only been offered to members of the royal family in recent history. The catch was that not only would he be out of the Commons, upon his death his son would be out of politics as well, and then HIS son. As I understand it, you can’t refuse to inherit a dukedom. Or you couldn’t. My knowledge of this is from conversations with my Mum who was a big fan of Winnie at one time (1970s and 80s). ETA: I’m not British either. Just a know-it-all. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/3 "2023-04-15T20:10:10Z")
Thanks, and please excuse my ignorance of British titles. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/4 "2023-04-15T20:22:51Z")
Reckon you should wait until someone comes along to rubbish everything I said! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/5 "2023-04-15T20:26:23Z")
Rubbish? Are you sure you aren’t British? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/6 "2023-04-15T20:28:14Z")
So, where did the “Sir” come from? [I am almost wholly ignorant of British peerage rules and proprieties] ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/7 "2023-04-15T20:37:44Z")
Apparently knights are not royal. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/8 "2023-04-15T20:46:56Z")
To be “Royal” one has to be part of The Family. Knighthood is a pretty low rank as titles go, There are lots of them and many come from show biz. Knighthoods are not inheritable. They do, however, rate a “Sir”. The whole aristocratic title system is pretty arcane and I am sure that anyone can search for an explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/9 "2023-04-15T20:47:37Z")
“Duke” is either the bottom end of “royal”, or the top end of “noble”, depending on how you slice it. A knightdom is either the bottom end of “noble” or the top end of “common”, depending on whether they’re heritable (most are not). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/10 "2023-04-15T20:53:24Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > hey do, however, rate a “Sir”. Or a “Dame”! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/11 "2023-04-15T20:56:12Z")
Of course. “Dames” are the female equivalent and should be addressed as Maam. (_Not_ Marm). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/12 "2023-04-15T20:56:55Z")
At that time, there was no power to renounce a title, and Winston’s son had political ambitions, so as @Mighty_Mouse says, Winston declined a title that would take him out of the Commons and into the Lords. (Apparently “Duke of London” was being mooted, since he was so closely linked to London during th the Blitz). Knighthood is not a peerage, so he could continue in the Commons after being knighted. He was awarded a Knight of the Garter, which is the highest knighthood going. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/13 "2023-04-15T20:57:45Z")
Ordinary knighthoods are not inheritable in the UK today. But a baronetcy is heritable, and baronets are also known as ‘Sir’. The only person with the title ‘Sir’ that I have ever met is a baronet, and has inherited the title. Nice bloke, all things considered. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/14 "2023-04-15T21:29:19Z")
Traditionally, prime ministers were made earls after they left office. World War Two was kind of a big deal, so there was talk of making him a duke. After World War One, it had been decided that cabinet ministers, including the prime minister, would always be members of the House of Commons. Churchill predicted that the Labour government would be short-lived, and he wanted another shot at being prime minister, so he turned down the peerage. After his second government, he was again offered a peerage. But he was getting old. His son Randolph had political ambitions, and inheriting a title would have nixed his hopes for someday becoming prime minister. So Winston again declined. As it turned out, without Winston’s coattails, Randolph could not get elected dogcatcher. He would have been better off with a seat in the Lords. But by that time, Winston was dead, and they don’t give peerages posthumously. His widow was given a life baronage, but Randolph was out of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/15 "2023-04-15T23:42:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > knightdom I believe that should be _knighthood_. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/16 "2023-04-15T23:58:31Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Of course. “Dames” are the female equivalent and should be addressed as Maam. (_Not_ Marm). Okay, despite my 100% Northern European heritage, (23 & Me ™) I don’t get it. I thought “Marm” was a cockney term. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/17 "2023-04-15T23:59:39Z")
Who argues with a guy carrying a great big honking sword? ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/18 "2023-04-16T01:16:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks, and please excuse my ignorance of British titles. If you want the drum: [Debretts](https://debretts.com/) ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/19 "2023-04-16T01:19:05Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Who argues with a guy carrying a great big honking sword? Traditionally another guy with a great big honking sword. At least until the other guy started carrying personal firearms. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721/20 "2023-04-16T01:19:56Z")
Well, yes, but I have no honking swords, nor firearms that are not under the bed. So, while we are all here, I admire Winston Spencer Churchill. Is he still regarded in Britain as the guy who saved Britain in WWII, or disliked as the guy who detested burning dead husbands with living wives? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-royal-title-for-winston-churchill/982721.md?page=2)