# A Second "Downing Street Memo" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930 "2005-06-12T03:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/61 "2005-06-16T15:29:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > And the idea that Condi was “enthusiastic about regime change” is just silly if that’s supposed to be damning. Regime change was the freakin’ official policy of the US ever since Congress passed a resolution about it in the late '90s. She damn well better have been enthusiastic about it. Huh. I coulda _sworn_ (and actually did in fact swear, frequently) that Bush ran on a platform of (paraphrased) “Just say ‘NO’ to Nation building”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/62 "2005-06-16T15:35:29Z")
So what? 9/11 changed a lot of people’s minds about that. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/63 "2005-06-16T15:47:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So what? 9/11 changed a lot of people’s minds about that. gosh. that was what everyone told me when I asked “why invade now, what’s different now?” 9/11 was an attack by terrorists and had fuck to do with SH, Iraq or nation building. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/64 "2005-06-16T15:49:41Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I dunno. Why does anyone need more than the famous Wolfowitz statement about WMDs. I can’t remember the exact wording, but it was something like-- “We just used that reason since it would be the most likely one to actually convince people.” Because that one hasn’t worked? Either not enough people know who Wolfowitz is, or they just don’t care. Official minutes from Blair’s top people is as close as you can get to Oval Office tapes. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/65 "2005-06-16T16:28:43Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Why does anyone need more than the famous Wolfowitz statement about WMDs. Seems to me there were a lot of people, who dismissed that at the time. Most don’t remember it today, but the question of why the fuck we got involved in this damn fool war does seem to be weighing more heavily on the mind of America now that the terrorists are getting desperate enough to kill our children in [big lots](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050616/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq). The memos serve as a convenient refresher for those who were too shell shocked, frightened or dull witted to pay attention back in 2002. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/66 "2005-06-16T16:35:33Z")
This cow will never give milk, so stop milking. Most people knew long ago that Bush wanted to remove Saddam. To get people outraged about it requires to convince them that Saddam was decent. Do you really want to go that way? The most deranged even hope that those memos will start another Watergate. Think it over, people! Breaking into DNC headquarters was a wrong thing to do. Removing Saddam was a right thing to do. Do you really want to perpetuate equivalency between US DNC and Saddam’s Baath? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/67 "2005-06-16T16:41:53Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Most people knew long ago that Bush wanted to remove Saddam. To get people outraged about it requires to convince them that Saddam was decent. Do you really want to go that way? Wow, ascribing a strawman to your opponents before debate even begins. Ballsy. One can believe _both_ that Sadaam was an asshole _and_ that we went about the war, and the buildup to war, incorrectly. See, if Bush was commited to attacking, then he lied when he said he was still open to diplomacy. If he decided to take Sadaam out anyways, then it was dishonest to pin the war on claims of WMD’s even while Bushco was having to cherry pick intel in order to make a case. > [@New Iskander](#): > > The most deranged even hope that those memos will start another Watergate. Think it over, people! Hmmm… Bush/Cheney et all removed from government? Okay, I’ve thought it over, good idea. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Breaking into DNC headquarters was a wrong thing to do. Removing Saddam was a right thing to do. Ahem. Only a Sith thinks in absolutes. It was right to remove Sadaam, but we went about it in the wrong way. Grok? > [@New Iskander](#): > > Do you really want to perpetuate equivalency between US DNC and Saddam’s Baath? :rolleyes: Yes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/68 "2005-06-16T17:05:45Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Because that one hasn’t worked? That’s not a bad argument, I have to admit. 🙂 I’ve said all along that the majority of Americans will back Bush and the war in Iraq as long as it’s going reasonably well. The current situtation can’t be described as “reasonably well”, and support is eroding. Maybe these types of memos will actually be a catalyst for outrage, but the real source of problems for Bush are the facts on the ground at any given time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/69 "2005-06-16T17:18:52Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It was right to remove Sadaam, but we went about it in the wrong way. Grok? There’s just a bit more to it than that. We (and that’s a very charitable use of that pronoun) went about it in such a wrong way that the Iraqis would seem to be even worse off than before. In such a wrong way that there are more people being killed now than before. In such a wrong way that there is no realistic hope of fixing it now. In such a wrong way that thousands of our own people are dead, tens of thousands maimed, in what appears to be a waste of their gifts of their lives. In such a wrong way that we have little moral credibility or leadership ability left that we can use for other purposes, no matter what they are. In such a wrong way that our economy has suffered for it, and will continue to suffer for many years. In such a wrong way that we’ve greatly increased the number of people in the world who hate us and want to kill us. In such a wrong way that still no realistic and achievable plan exists even for bailing out. None of which means “Saddam was decent”. **New Iskander** , it is doubtful that you’ll ever get it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/70 "2005-06-16T17:42:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We (and that’s a very charitable use of that pronoun) went about it in such a wrong way that the **Iraqis** would seem to be even worse off than before. In such a wrong way that there are more people being killed now than before. In such a wrong way that there is no realistic hope of fixing it now. In such a wrong way that thousands of our own people are dead, tens of thousands maimed, in what appears to be a waste of their gifts of their lives. In such a wrong way that we have little moral credibility or leadership ability left that we can use for other purposes, no matter what they are. In such a wrong way that our economy has suffered for it, and will continue to suffer for many years. In such a wrong way that we’ve greatly increased the number of people in the world who hate us and want to kill us. In such a wrong way that still no realistic and achievable plan exists even for bailing out. Thanks very much for a _classic_ illustration. I couldn’t do it better. Just replace Iraqis with Vietnamese and re-read your own paragraph: it sounds lifted straight from the late 60-s. Now, ask yourself, did Kennedy and Johnson suffered much for starting and escalating Vietnam war? Did Nixon get much credit for ending it? External war is nothing. But Watergate is still a Real Big Deal. You want damage Bush, concentrate on internal politics, all I’m saying. But if you still believe that Memos Cow has any milk in it, go ahead, keep milking. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/71 "2005-06-16T17:50:24Z")
Not about us “damaging” Bush. About how Bush has damaged _us_! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/72 "2005-06-16T17:53:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Just replace Iraqis with Vietnamese and re-read your own paragraph: it sounds lifted straight from the late 60-s. Yep. That’s one more way in which it was done in such a wrong way - the historical parallels were ignored, perhaps because the decisionmakers had never faced them when it was their time to do so. > [@](#): > > Now, ask yourself, did Kennedy and Johnson suffered much for starting and escalating Vietnam war? Hell, yes (except that the first US “advisers” were sent in by Eisenhower, not Kennedy). Johnson was forced out of office and died in disgrace just a couple of years later. > [@](#): > > Did Nixon get much credit for ending it? No, because it took him five years to execute his “secret plan”, and he killed a hell of a lot of people unnecessarily along the way (look into Operation Rolling Thunder sometime), including expanding the war outside Vietnam without any public oversight. > [@](#): > > External war is nothing. How batshit does one have to be to say that, much less believe it? Just so you know, you’re trying to talk about Vietnam to a lot of people on this board who, unlike you apparently, were either alive and aware at the time or were even actually there. > [@](#): > > But Watergate is still a Real Big Deal. You want damage Bush, concentrate on internal politics, all I’m saying. There’s plenty of that to go around too. Your insistence on separating domestic from international politics is, shall we say, a quaint reference to bygone generations, at best. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/73 "2005-06-16T20:02:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …the first US “advisers” were sent in by Eisenhower, not Kennedy… Johnson was forced out of office and died in disgrace just a couple of years later. It’s too late to expect Bush to get Johnson treatment. Bush ran second time (and won). > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Just so you know, you’re trying to talk about Vietnam to a lot of people on this board who, unlike you apparently, were either alive and aware at the time or were even actually there. If I say things you can’t agree with doesn’t mean I have no respect for your life experiences. What do you want, silent adulation? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/74 "2005-06-16T20:12:02Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It’s too late to expect Bush to get Johnson treatment. Bush ran second time (and won). It’s only been 3 years for Bush. Johnson was still pretty popular in 1966, and the Vietnam War still actually seemed “winnable” at that point. Things are happening on a comparatively compressed time scale now. BTW, I mixed up Operation Rolling Thunder with Linebacker I and II. RT was an LBJ operation, springing from the same unfounded machismo Nixon had (both were REMF’s during WW2, in large measure that war’s version of chickenhawks). Either way, though, the suggestion that only domestic politics matters is absurd. No President other than Lincoln did more to advance civil rights, for instance, but the protesters outside the White House every day, yelling “Fuck you, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?”, weren’t objecting to his Great Society policies. > [@](#): > > If I say things you can’t agree with doesn’t mean I have no respect for your life experiences. What do you want, silent adulation? No, you need to be more aware of the possibility of your own ignorance before showing it to the world the way you have here. It isn’t about agreeing, it’s about basic command of the facts - which you ain’t got. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/75 "2005-06-16T20:15:48Z")
**New Iskander** , you certainly have a right to your opinions, but your opinion that Watergate somehow had a bigger impact on the American consciousness than the Vietnam War does seem kind of nutty. “External war is nothing”? Oh really? How ya figure? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/76 "2005-06-16T20:41:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It isn’t about agreeing, it’s about basic command of the facts - which you ain’t got. Don’t bother. **New Iskander** has Kool-Aid for blood. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/77 "2005-06-16T20:45:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > How ya figure? On the basis of historical record. JFK is God, LBJ is an embarrasment better forgotten, Nixon is a villain. That’s how they went down in History. My conclusion is it’s a lot more dangerous for a politician to commit offences within US than without. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/78 "2005-06-16T21:24:14Z")
**NI:** \* JFK is God, LBJ is an embarrasment better forgotten, Nixon is a villain. That’s how they went down in History. My conclusion is it’s a lot more dangerous for a politician to commit offences within US than without.\* I think your analysis is skewed by leaving out the fact that JFK was tragically and publicly murdered by an assassin less than three years into his first term . Thus, the traumatic and ultimately extremely unpopular Vietnam War was primarily associated with his successors who continued it (and that definitely includes Nixon, who was definitely not hated only for the Watergate scandal). I agree that if Bush were to be assassinated in office, it would probably boost his popularity ratings quite a bit.\* (In fact, I think the attempted Reagan assassination is one of the things that attached many voters to him so strongly.) But I certainly wouldn’t argue from that that starting a war has a negligible impact on public opinion. \*Would any representatives of the Secret Service or the FBI and all other security-conscious readers please note that I am **absolutely not** advocating or supporting in any way whatsoever the assassination of the President? I think it would be an Extremely Bad Thing in every respect and I am completely opposed to the idea. Gotta spell this stuff out these days; can’t be too careful. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/79 "2005-06-16T21:54:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …I certainly wouldn’t argue from that that starting a war has a negligible impact on public opinion. I didn’t say _negligible_. I said that looking at History, whatever public reaction might have been to external war, US public never punished a President for starting a war but did come down very hard on the President who abused his powers inside the US. That’s why I think that expecting revelations about Iraq invasion to develop into Watergate is simply kooky. Most Americans of any political persuasion will never agree with that. Besides, if we allow just for a moment that removal of vicious dictator is equal to Watergate, what kind of bizarro world that brings into existence? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/80 "2005-06-16T22:10:42Z")
[Comedy Gold over at the white house this afternoon:](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/06/20050616-5.html) > [@](#): > > Q Scott, on John Conyers, John Conyers is walking here with that letter again, as you have acknowledged from Elaine’s comment. But 88 leaders on Capitol Hill signed that letter. Now, I understand what you’re saying about him, but what about the other 88 who signed this letter, wanting information, answers to these five questions? > > MR. McCLELLAN: How did they vote on the war – the decision to go to war in Iraq? > > Q Well, you have two – well, if that’s the case, you have two Republicans who are looking for a timetable. How do you justify that? > > MR. McCLELLAN: I already talked about that. > > Q I understand, but let’s talk about this. > > MR. McCLELLAN: Like I said – > > Q Well, just because – I understand – but wait a minute, that’s not – if leaders from Congress – if you’re talking about unifying… Plus a heaping helping of Insurgency: > [@](#): > > Is there any idea how long a last throe lasts for? And Faux Durban Reprehension: > [@](#): > > To suggest that these enemy combatants who are detained at Guantanamo Bay should be released just is simply beyond belief to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930.md?page=5)