# A Second "Downing Street Memo" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930 "2005-06-12T03:38:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/81 "2005-06-16T22:30:52Z")
**NI:** _I didn’t say negligible._ Well, when you said “External war is nothing”, that’s certainly what it sounded like. **NI:** _US public never punished a President for starting a war_ You’re now ignoring the example of Johnson that you acknowledged just a few posts ago (“It’s too late to expect Bush to get Johnson treatment”), as well as that of Truman and the highly unpopular Korean War. **NI:** _Besides, if we allow just for a moment that removal of vicious dictator is equal to Watergate, what kind of bizarro world that brings into existence?_ I continue to be gobsmacked by the way that war supporters still refer to the invasion of Iraq as a “removal”, as though it were some kind of medical procedure. “Mrs. Mesopotamia, I’m afraid the tests show that dictator of yours is malignant, we’re going to have to remove it.” If the invasion of Iraq had simply “removed a vicious dictator”, I really doubt that anybody would be seriously upset over it. But what that euphemistic newspeak conceals is that our leaders manipulated and distorted facts in order to **deliberately start a multi-year conflict that killed at least tens of thousands of Iraqis and nearly two thousand coalition soldiers and contractors** , destroyed vital infrastructure, ignited civil tensions into an armed and growing insurgency, caused millions of people around the world to regard us as anti-Muslim bigots and rapacious oppressors, and inspired _jihadis_ and terrorists to help kill and intimidate innocent Iraqis—besides costing hundreds of billions of dollars. All without any legitimate justification of self-defense, or any viable post-war plans, **or** any workable strategies for paying even the financial costs. If you’re seriously trying to argue that Nixon’s illegal spying operations and other Beltway dirty tricks were ethically **worse** than something of this magnitude, I’m afraid it’s you who are living in a bizarro world. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/82 "2005-06-17T00:03:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My prediction is that Bush’s spin team (and they are the reigning Champions of Spin) will ensure that if in a month or two’s time you were to hold a poll of the US public about what this Memo implied, an astonishing proportion would say: “that planning for the post war period was inadequate”. Sweet of you to give Joe Sixpack that much credit for a significant attention span. I’ll be astonished if two months from now the results of such a poll result in more than a miniscule proportion saying: “WHAT memo?” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/83 "2005-06-17T00:05:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sweet of you to give Joe Sixpack that much credit for a significant attention span. I’ll be astonished if two months from now the results of such a poll result in more than a miniscule proportion saying: “WHAT memo?” :smack: make that: “saying anything OTHER than: ‘WHAT memo?’” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/84 "2005-06-17T00:15:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, when you said “External war is nothing”, that’s certainly what it sounded like. I meant to say “nothing in comparison to Watergate”. Sorry about misunderstanding. > [@Kimstu](#): > > You’re now ignoring the example of Johnson that you acknowledged just a few posts ago (“It’s too late to expect Bush to get Johnson treatment”), as well as that of Truman and the highly unpopular Korean War. By “Johnson treatment” I meant obscurity and embarrassment. No official action was taken against Johnson. And I thought Truman was lionized; at least on “West Wing” he is. > [@Kimstu](#): > > I continue to be gobsmacked by the way that war supporters still refer to the invasion of Iraq as a “removal”, as though it were some kind of medical procedure. And I am equally “gobsmacked” how carefully war opponents avoid talking about Saddam removal. Why, this very thread leads you to only one inevitable conclusion: it was all about removing Saddam, the rest was pyrotechnics. Yet all you hear, “Bush Started a War”, ad nauseam. As if Bush is some kind of madman who enjoys starting wars for no reason. > [@Kimstu](#): > > “Mrs. Mesopotamia, I’m afraid the tests show that dictator of yours is malignant, we’re going to have to remove it.” I like that. > [@Kimstu](#): > > If the invasion of Iraq had simply “removed a vicious dictator”, I really doubt that anybody would be seriously upset over it. But what that euphemistic newspeak conceals… Conceals nothing. We all very well aware what’s going on. We did what we did and it’s extremely costly. Things might get much worse, even. It doesn’t mean there was a better way. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/85 "2005-06-17T00:25:11Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Conceals nothing. We all very well aware what’s going on. We did what we did and it’s extremely costly. Things might get much worse, even. It doesn’t mean there was a better way. If there is not a way to do something that does not sink to the depths that were achieved in this adventure, it is better to leave it undone until there is. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/86 "2005-06-17T01:48:26Z")
That presupposes that doing nothing was a good option. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/87 "2005-06-17T01:57:54Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And I am equally “gobsmacked” how carefully war opponents avoid talking about Saddam removal. Why, this very thread leads you to only one inevitable conclusion: it was all about removing Saddam, the rest was pyrotechnics. Yet all you hear, “Bush Started a War”, ad nauseam. As if Bush is some kind of madman who enjoys starting wars for no reason. > . Mmmm hmmmmm. :dubious: So, let’s see, if he wanted to remove Sadaam, why cherry pick intel, ruin American credibility, and run with the WMD/Al Queada angle? If he wanted to remove Sadaam for the sake of the Iraqi people, why was there so little support for the Iraqi civilians once we invaded? How long did it take us to get basic services back up and running in Baghdad? The rest of the country? No… he wanted Sadaam gone, but the reasons weren’t 1) WMD 2) AQ 3) The Iraqi civilians. So what’s the real reason? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/88 "2005-06-17T03:49:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Sweet of you to give Joe Sixpack that much credit for a significant attention span. I’ll be astonished if two months from now the results of such a poll result in more than a miniscule proportion saying: “WHAT memo?” Good point. But _of those polled who remember the memo at all…_. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/89 "2005-06-17T04:12:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … he wanted Sadaam gone, but the reasons weren’t 1) WMD 2) AQ 3) The Iraqi civilians. > > So what’s the real reason? I think WMD, AlQ and Iraqis all did figure in the equation, but there was something else, probably more important then other three parts. I don’t know what. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/90 "2005-06-17T04:16:57Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Why, this very thread leads you to only one inevitable conclusion: it was all about removing Saddam, the rest was pyrotechnics. When (sorry, _if_) you ever develop any ability to empathise with others at all (there are no current signs of that) you will understand that within this single comment is all you need to know about why enormous numbers of people hate you, some so much they will kill themselves trying to hurt you and yours. The sad part being of course that along the way, they may have learnt (from you) to regard any hurt to people like me and mine as “just pyrotechnics”. > [@](#): > > We did what we did and it’s extremely costly. Things might get much worse, even. It doesn’t mean there was a better way. and > [@](#): > > That presupposes that doing nothing was a good option. Is there any price that you would regard as higher than the price of doing nothing? What price is that? Feel free to be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/91 "2005-06-17T14:32:35Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That presupposes that doing nothing was a good option. Why wouldn’t it have been a good option? Because Saddam was in league with Al Qaida? Nope. Because Saddam had WMD? Nope. Because Saddam was a direct threat to the U.S.? Nope. So what would have been wrong with persuing terrorists instead of getting Saddam? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/92 "2005-06-17T14:47:08Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That presupposes that doing nothing was a good option. No, it does not. Did you happen to hear anything about the decade-long, entirely-successful containment operation that preceded the invasion? Would continuing it have been “nothing”? \*Your \* statement presupposes that there \*was \* a good option. There wasn’t. The real world rarely provides one. We had been using the least bad option, and Bush switched to the worst. > [@](#): > > I think WMD, AlQ and Iraqis all did figure in the equation, but there was something else, probably more important then other three parts. I don’t know what. [The organization which produced most of the key decisionmakers](http://www.newamericancentury.org/) explains it all for you. [Put into plain English for you](http://www.pnac.info). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/93 "2005-06-17T14:52:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That presupposes that doing nothing was a good option. I’m assuming that this is in response to my post immediately preceding. Well, bullshit. It presupposes that doing what was being done ever since the 1991 ceasefire was a better option than abandoning our principles as Americans and as believers in the rule of law, even international law. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/94 "2005-06-17T15:00:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I think WMD, AlQ and Iraqis all did figure in the equation, There were no WMD, and we knew it, having to cherry pick rejected intel in order to make our case. There was no AQ connection, and even while we were making claims of meetings, Czech intel was telling us that it was unsubstantiated and wrong. Even when we invaded Baghdad, we did not bring sufficient portable generators, enough civil engineers to get the water back on, enough police forces to prevent rioting and looting, etc… So, you can figure that WMD, AQ, and the Iraqis figured into the situation, but there’s virtually no proof that that’s true, and a lot that it isn’t. > [@New Iskander](#): > > but there was something else, probably more important then other three parts. I don’t know what. And this doesn’t disturb you? That the administration had some secret agenda that even now isn’t public knowledge? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/95 "2005-06-17T15:01:37Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I think WMD, AlQ and Iraqis all did figure in the equation, but there was something else, probably more important then other three parts. I don’t know what. When something is being done in my fucking name, it is my God. Damned. JOB. to know what the reasons are. And it’s your job when it’s being done in your name. Am I incorrect in believing that you are a citizen of one of the Scandinavian nations, **New Iskander**? Or are you an American expatriate? I’d like to get my contempt for your positions and attitudes placed in some context. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/96 "2005-06-17T15:51:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Did you happen to hear anything about the decade-long, entirely-successful containment operation that preceded the invasion? Would continuing it have been “nothing”? Are you talking about [this successful operation](http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000CA740.htm)? > [@](#): > > Indeed, even when Bush officials went through a brief spell in 2001 of claiming that Saddam was no longer a threat to Western civilisation and had wound down his WMD programmes, the inspectors continued to talk up Saddam’s threat. Do me a favor, read the whole article. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/97 "2005-06-17T15:58:54Z")
You’ve been done enough favors. Time to educate _yourself_, pal. Way past time, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/98 "2005-06-17T16:02:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And this doesn’t disturb you? That the administration had some secret agenda that even now isn’t public knowledge? It most certainly does not disturb me in the least. I don’t expect to be told everything. I expect to think through things on my own. For example, I still don’t know all the real reasons we bombed Kosovo. It does not disturb me either. I accepted that if Clinton decided to act against Miloscevic in that manner, then it was probably the best possible thing to do. I extend similar credence to Bush versus Saddam. Therein lies all the difference. You don’t trust Bush. I clearly see that the starting point of all your arguments is, “If only Bush was never elected!”. You can not distinguish between hard-nosed political decision that any party President would have to make and hated Bush persona. So there is no resolution possible and we just have to wait until '08. May be Hillary can restore some sanity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/99 "2005-06-17T16:24:38Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It most certainly does not disturb me in the least. I don’t expect to be told everything. I expect to think through things on my own. Wow. You don’t expect to be told everything… when our government is marching us to war, possibly an unnecessary war in which Americans and Iraqi civilians will die, in which there is, by your own admission, a missive hidden agenda, and you don’t care? How, exactly, do you propose we as a nation ‘think through’ hidden motivations and agendas? You really don’t expect our leaders to be honest and transparent when they’re trying to march us to war? > [@New Iskander](#): > > For example, I still don’t know all the real reasons we bombed Kosovo. This is absurd. The reasons we bombed Kosovo are a matter of public record, the reasons we invaded Iraq were all lies and the real reason is still hidden. What, exactly, are you confused about re: Kosovo? > [@New Iskander](#): > > It does not disturb me either. I accepted that if Clinton decided to act against Miloscevic in that manner, then it was probably the best possible thing to do. I extend similar credence to Bush versus Saddam. The difference was that when we were bombing Kosovo, we weren’t pretending that they had terorist links, or WMD, or what have you. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Therein lies all the difference. You don’t trust Bush. I clearly see that the starting point of all your arguments is, “If only Bush was never elected!”. Get new glasses, you’re seeing through them rather darkly. > [@New Iskander](#): > > You can not distinguish between hard-nosed political decision that any party President would have to make and hated Bush persona. Durrrrrr me no think good brain hurt ouch! :rolleyes: > [@New Iskander](#): > > So there is no resolution possible and we just have to wait until '08. May be Hillary can restore some sanity. The resolution would be to turn Iraq over to international bidding for reconstruction, to bring in the UN’s multinational forces and to stop violating the GC and human rights. And, simply in case you wanted some of your straw back, I’m not a Dem and wouldn’t vote for Hillary. Nice try though. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930/100 "2005-06-17T17:15:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is absurd. > The reasons we bombed Kosovo are a matter of public record, the reasons we invaded Iraq were all lies and the real reason is still hidden. > > What, exactly, are you confused about re: Kosovo? Why did we have to invade the sovereign country without UN Security Council approval? Why did we have to stop the genocide that was never found to be taking place there? Why did we have to risk serious military confrontation with two nuclear powers over the hollow issue? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The resolution would be to turn Iraq over to international bidding for reconstruction, to bring in the UN’s multinational forces and to stop violating the GC and human rights. And, simply in case you wanted some of your straw back, I’m not a Dem and wouldn’t vote for Hillary. Nice try though. Very commendable. Start working on your presidential campaign. I promise you my vote. If you decide not to run after all, I promise you to vote for Hillary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-downing-street-memo/307930.md?page=6)