# A Second Execution Attempt? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208 "2009-09-23T07:09:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/41 "2009-09-25T03:51:14Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > All it takes is a chair, one psycho, a water hose, and a couple people to drag out the body before the next guy is brought in. I have yet to track down the cite, but the NKVD had a “photo booth” that had the requirements, plus a TT-30 pistol, and with the hose crew implied. Please! We’re not a bunch of Stalinist savages, here! I’m sure with modern materials engineering, we could do away with the hose crew in lieu of a sprinkler system. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/42 "2009-09-25T03:59:03Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > Because in addition to killing the condemned, we also insist on glossing over the reality of the situation. Therefore we want our methods to be not only quick and painless, but also very clean so we can feel better about ourselves. If that weren’t the case, why even mess with the .38? Bring back the guillotine. Agreed. Hell, for what it is worth, you could even automate the dropping of the blade, so all someone would have to do is strap the guy in the correct position, and a computerized black box could drop the blade at a specific time, or a randomized time from when it was locked on. No need for a doctor, head goes bouncy in a basket, the body gets hauled off. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/43 "2009-09-25T04:52:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A member of the squad had a chance to convince himself that he did not actually shoot a helpless man. Even that proved too weak. Many people think it is easy. It is not. Why do I think many people would buy lottery tickets for the chance to pull the trigger… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/44 "2009-09-25T21:54:17Z")
If I was a state of Ohio lawyer, I would argue that there was no first attempt to execute him. The preparations for execution failed, not the execution itself. The exectution was never even attempted. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/45 "2009-09-25T22:21:28Z")
air tight room, with a fan inside to circulate the air around the room, and a very slow co2 leak. when the room is open the co2 leak is irrelevant, when its closed it becomes deadly after some time )say 15 minutes to 4 hours, I dont really care. drop them in with a pillow and let them fall asleep. you dont even have to tell them that its the killing room. tell them its a temporary holding cell. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/46 "2009-09-25T22:31:57Z")
Yeah, tell them it’s the shower room. That’ll go over big. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/47 "2009-09-25T22:45:32Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If I was a state of Ohio lawyer, I would argue that there was no first attempt to execute him. The preparations for execution failed, not the execution itself. The exectution was never even attempted. 😕 The preparations didn’t fail (all of the equipment was there, and everything was in working order) - the attempts failed. I think it would be crazy (like Michele Bachmann crazy) to argue that the execution was never attempted. [QUOTE=Critical1] when the room is open the co2 leak is irrelevant, when its closed it becomes deadly after some time )say 15 minutes to 4 hours, I dont really care. drop them in with a pillow and let them fall asleep. you dont even have to tell them that its the killing room. tell them its a temporary holding cell. [/quote] That wouldn’t exactly be a quick death, though, would it? I mean, if you’re displacing the oxygen with CO2, then it’s death by asphyxiation, which is _particularly_ inhumane. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/48 "2009-09-25T22:56:01Z")
They never attempted to give him the lethal injections. Simple as that. The necessary conditions to attempt the execution were not met. As a lawyer, that would be my story and I would stick to it. And I think it is defensible – though of course I’m not actually a lawyer. It certainly isn’t Michelle Bachman crazy. Nobody else is that crazy. Serious question… if they were strapping him in the electric chair and there was a power failure before they even tried to flip the switch, would that be a botched execution attempt. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/49 "2009-09-25T23:06:39Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > They never attempted to give him the lethal injections. Simple as that. That’s like saying someone who held up a bank can’t be guilty of attempted robbery just because they were never handed any bags of money. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > The necessary conditions to attempt the execution were not met. The execution attempt encompasses a broad set of actions. It’s not the teeny-tiny window of time that takes place during the transfer of the lethal chemicals from the machines to the man’s body. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It certainly isn’t Michelle Bachman crazy. Nobody else is that crazy. You’re right - that _was_ kind of a low blow. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Serious question… if they were strapping him in the electric chair and there was a power failure before they even tried to flip the switch, would that be a botched execution attempt. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/50 "2009-09-25T23:20:04Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > That’s like saying someone who held up a bank can’t be guilty of attempted robbery just because they were never handed any bags of money. No, I’d say it was more like you make all the plans for the robbery but chicken out as you come to the entrance, turn around and leave. > [@](#): > > The execution attempt encompasses a broad set of actions. It’s not the teeny-tiny window of time that takes place during the transfer of the lethal chemicals from the machines to the man’s body. I’m sure that’s what the defense attorney will say. I would argue that it starts when the executioner pushes whatever button they push. If he tries and fails to inject the drugs, he has botched the execution. Until then, he hasn’t. One would think there would already be some case law on this. I’ll take a look around. > [@](#): > > Absolutely. So you say. Do you have an actual knowledge to back up your opinion? If so, I would be happy to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/51 "2009-09-25T23:39:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure that’s what the defense attorney will say. I would argue that it starts when the executioner pushes whatever button they push. If he tries and fails to inject the drugs, he has botched the execution. Until then, he hasn’t. One would think there would already be some case law on this. I’ll take a look around. If I went in for a blood donation, and the phlebotomists poked around a bit but couldn’t find a usable vein, I would be perfectly justified in saying that they tried and failed to draw blood from me. Or if you’re using the bank robbery example, it’s not the robbers chickening out, it’s them finding that they couldn’t defeat the locks on the front door. At every stage in the process, the executioners had the intention of killing the prisoner, and they took all steps available to them to carry out that intention, therefore they made the attempt. More on topic, I don’t know whether this qualifies as “cruel and unusual”, as laid out in the US Constitution, but the US constitution isn’t the only one at issue here. There’s also the Ohio constitution, which specifies that an execution must be quick and painless, and this is certainly not quick. If they go ahead and execute him now, then they’re killing a man outside of the procedures provided for in law for legal killing, which makes the executioners murderers. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/52 "2009-09-25T23:40:19Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, I’d say it was more like you make all the plans for the robbery but chicken out as you come to the entrance, turn around and leave. Oh please, they didn’t just walk into the room and then walk back out. :rolleyes: It’s like a robber who walks into a bank, disables the cameras, ties up the guard, threatens the tellers, and then realizes he didn’t load his gun. Even if he didn’t get around to asking for money yet, it’s pretty specious to say that an attempt hadn’t been made. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/53 "2009-09-25T23:47:09Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, I’d say it was more like you make all the plans for the robbery but chicken out as you come to the entrance, turn around and leave. But you didn’t leave; you actually got to the point where another person (the target) was involved. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m sure that’s what the defense attorney will say. I would argue that it starts when the executioner pushes whatever button they push. If he tries and fails to inject the drugs, he has botched the execution. Until then, he hasn’t. One would think there would already be some case law on this. I’ll take a look around. Thanks, I would be interested in hearing any information you find on this. Here’s how I see it: The execution attempt consists of several steps: [list=“1”] [li] Preparing the lethal chemicals[/li][li] Hooking up the prisoner[/li][li] Pushing the button (or whatever)[/li][li] Waiting for the prisoner to die[/li][/list] The bank robbery attempt consists of several steps: [list=“1”] [li] Walking to the bank[/li][li] Threatening the teller to hand over the money[/li][li] Receiving the money[/li][li] Making the getaway[/li][/list] IMO, your argument could probably hold water (in both cases) up until the beginning of step #2. After that point, the actions have progressed far enough that it’s _very_ apparent that an attempt is being made. It doesn’t matter that the actions never even make it to step #3; consequences have already begun. Sure, the deed isn’t done, but you can’t act like the _attempt_ never even occurred. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > So you say. Do you have an actual knowledge to back up your opinion? If so, I would be happy to see it. Sorry, I didn’t realize you were asking for precedent. In that case, I should have prefaced my earlier response with “IMO”. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/54 "2009-09-25T23:57:20Z")
Just shoot the murderer, it’s far less painless and cheaper then lethal injection. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/55 "2009-09-26T00:05:35Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Just shoot the murderer, it’s far less painless and cheaper then lethal injection. Except that in Ohio, the state in question, they’re not looking for “_less_ painless”. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/56 "2009-09-26T00:49:22Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > That wouldn’t exactly be a quick death, though, would it? I mean, if you’re displacing the oxygen with CO2, then it’s death by asphyxiation, which is _particularly_ inhumane. nah the slow build up of co2 causes you to get sleepy then fall asleep then you simply never wake up. for some goofy reason blood will bond with c02 in preference to oxygen so you dont really realize you are suffocating. its not like getting dropped in a tank of something we cant breathe and gasping for air, you body just keeps on like nothing is going on. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/57 "2009-09-26T01:35:28Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > nah the slow build up of co2 causes you to get sleepy then fall asleep then you simply never wake up. for some goofy reason blood will bond with c02 in preference to oxygen so you dont really realize you are suffocating. its not like getting dropped in a tank of something we cant breathe and gasping for air, you body just keeps on like nothing is going on. I was thinking that it would be akin to holding a plastic bag over your head (not to the point where you couldn’t draw in any breaths, but rather each successive breath doesn’t seem to be “enough”). If it’s indeed closer to what you’re describing, then it would definitely be more humane than the other execution methods currently in use. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/58 "2009-09-26T02:48:31Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > …Sorry, I didn’t realize you were asking for precedent. In that case, I should have prefaced my earlier response with “IMO”. I didn’t start by asking for a precedent. But your posts contain such certainty, and such disdain for another opinion, that I had to assume you had some authoritative knowledge. Since you don’t, your opinion is worth no more than mone, and I doubly don’t appreciate the Michelle Bachman comment. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/59 "2009-09-26T03:15:26Z")
I swear I didn’t know this when I posted, but my argument is apparently going to be played out in court. According to [this MSNBC story](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32916157/), a federal judge has issued a restraining order preventing Ohio from another attempt. The county prosecutor is taking the position that I laid out – there was no first attempt. > [@](#): > > While the state consented to the delay, the prosecutor in Cuyahoga County — where Broom’s crime occurred 25 years ago — opposed it, saying the execution had never begun because the lethal drug cocktail never began flowing into Broom’s body. There is a reference to a 2008 Supreme Court ruling that upheld Kentucky’s lethal injection procedures. From the article: > [@](#): > > Chief Justice John Roberts suggested at the time that the court will not halt scheduled executions in the future unless “the condemned prisoner establishes that the state’s lethal injection protocol creates a demonstrated risk of severe pain.” But according to the defense attorney, in that some ruling: > [@](#): > > The court said that a “hypothetical situation” involving “a series of aborted attempts” at execution “would present a different case,” Sweeney said in his federal court filing. It sounds like (and I hope it isn’t) that the court is looking more at the protocol design, than the, ahem, execution. Personally I think the court is going too far if that is the case – if the staff bungles the execution in a manner that causes undue pain and suffering, I wouldn’t want to argue that there is any significant difference between that and a bad protocol. BTW, I have experienced something akin to the prisoner, though admittedly not with a threat of death hanging over me. I am a regular blood donor, and the Red Cross nurses regularly have trouble finding a vein. I’ve been poked as many as six times, had attempts in both elbows and both hands on the same day, and they’ve given up on me more than once. I’m sure this guy’s terror was indeed excruciating, but I am doubtful that the physical pain was. My physical issue seems to be related to being mildly dehydrated on occasion. There’s no direct link to the 2008 ruling, but I’m going to go look for it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208/60 "2009-09-26T03:16:53Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > Except that in Ohio, the state in question, they’re not looking for “_less_ painless”. It is painless. If it’s a direct headshot you feel a slight surge of pain and then you blank out and then go to Hell/be reincarnated as a cockroach/lose consciousness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-second-execution-attempt/511208.md?page=4)