A Second Sentient Species on Earth

[What_Exit]

@John Mace

This is not correct.

I don’t know which of you are correct. I would think somewhere in the middle. It is reasonable that Cro-magnon occasionally ate Neanderthals.
Could one or both of you cite as long as we are in GD?

Jim

[XT]

@John Mace

Most scientists consider Homo neanderthalensis a distinct species from Homo sapiens. Both species developed at roughly the same time (Neanderthals perhaps a bit earlier), but it’s likely that they shared a common ancestor no more recently than 600,000 years ago. There was considerable overlap of Neanderthals and Sapiens in Europe (at least 10k years), and we know next to nothing about how they interacted. There is very little evidence that any interbreeding took place, although absence of evidence is not evidence of abscence.

I thought there were signs of interbreeding between HN and HS (in China perhaps? I don’t recall where I read this)…thus wouldn’t they be the same species? Only members of the same species can breed viable offspring…least, thats what I recall from my biology classes.

@John Mace

One way to look at it is, if Australopithicines were alive today, you’d almost certainly see them only in a zoo. If Neanderthals were alive today, you’d probably see them walking in the streets.

Perhaps…but I’m unsure of what point you are making here. The Australopiticines were sentient (at least I always heard they are considered that way), same as the early homo variants…and some of them co-existed. So…two separate species were sentient at the same time. Thats all I was trying to say.

-XT

[What_Exit]

Some cites to show these questions are open to debate:
Neanderthals ‘mated with modern humans’

A hybrid skeleton showing features of both Neanderthal and early modern humans has been discovered, challenging the theory that our ancestors drove Neanderthals to extinction.

DNA Shows Neandertals Were Not Our Ancestors

A team of U.S. and German researchers has extracted mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone showing that the Neandertal DNA sequence falls outside the normal variation of modern humans.

“These results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute mitochondrial DNA to modern humans,” says Dr. Mark Stoneking, associate professor of anthropology at Penn State. “Neandertals are not our ancestors.”

This is science of the far past. There is still much to be learnt and many competing theories. It is essential to maintain an open mind in science.

Jim

[John_Mace]

@xtisme

I thought there were signs of interbreeding between HN and HS (in China perhaps? I don’t recall where I read this)…thus wouldn’t they be the same species? Only members of the same species can breed viable offspring…least, thats what I recall from my biology classes.

I didn’t say “no evidence’”, I said “very little”. There’s a child’s skelton found in Portugal that is supposedly a hybrid, but that conclusion is far from universally accepted. There is some evidence of interbreeding, but it is scant. There is also some very significant DNA data that says there was no interbreeding at all. In short, the jury is out, but the evidence available so far says it happend only rarely, if ever.

There were no Neanderthals in China-- they were strictly a European/Levantine species.

Perhaps…but I’m unsure of what point you are making here. The Australopiticines were sentient (at least I always heard they are considered that way), same as the early homo variants…and some of them co-existed. So…two separate species were sentient at the same time. Thats all I was trying to say.

There really isn’t any evidence that Australopithicines were any more sentient than modern chimps. If chimps are “sentient”, then I suppose Australopithicines were, too. Depends on how you define “sentient”.

I think we can safely call Neanderthals sentient, and then yes, there certainly was a time when there were two sentient species (including us) on earth. We can also be 100% certain that they interacted in some way-- the only question is, how.

[Der_Trihs]

@John Mace

This is not correct.

Details please ?

@jrfranchi

I don’t know which of you are correct. I would think somewhere in the middle. It is reasonable that Cro-magnon occasionally ate Neanderthals.
Could one or both of you cite as long as we are in GD?

I’m looking; so far all I’ve found are mentions on message boards; no link to the original studies yet. I will note that there is a great deal of denial about the existance of non-survival cannibalism.

[John_Mace]

BTW, even in Neanderthals and modern humans could interbreed (I’d bet $$ that they could), that would not necessarily make then the same species. There are many, many mammalian species that can interbreed and produce fertile hybrids, yet we still call them distinct species. The biological definition of species is highly subjective.

[John_Mace]

@jrfranchi

I don’t know which of you are correct. I would think somewhere in the middle. It is reasonable that Cro-magnon occasionally ate Neanderthals.
Could one or both of you cite as long as we are in GD?

You want me to produce a cite that Cro-Magnons did not eat Neanderthals? No such cite exists. I can also state that no cite exists claiming Cro-Magnons did not eat tigers.

I’m simply saying that I’m familiar with the literature and I’ve never seen any compelling articles stating that this was a common practice, as der Trihs states. I think it’s up to him to produce a cite.

[iamthewalrus_3]

The OP mentioned another sentient species, but there’s a much more likely (IMO) chance of sentience arising elsewhere. I think this question is going to be answered rather soon when an artificial intelligence stands up and asks for its rights.

[XT]

@John Mace

There were no Neanderthals in China-- they were strictly a European/Levantine species.

:smack: Er…right. I knew that. Gods know what I was thinking of there.

@John Mace

BTW, even in Neanderthals and modern humans could interbreed (I’d bet $$ that they could), that would not necessarily make then the same species. There are many, many mammalian species that can interbreed and produce fertile hybrids, yet we still call them distinct species. The biological definition of species is highly subjective.

This I didn’t know. I always that that this was the boundary between species…the ability to produce viable offspring.

-XT

[RTFirefly]

@lissener

The organism itself doesn’t drive evolution, the environment does.

And there’s nothing in the environment that inherently prefers intelligence over other evolutionary “advances,” like flight, or venom sacs.

I wonder if that’s still true. We humans have become a big factor in the environment of practically every species that isn’t completely confined to an underground river somehere, and the dominant factor in the environment of most land mammals. Animals that survive in the not-so-‘wild’ are going to be those that can survive our continual encroachments. That puts a premium on quick adaptability, and species with intelligence have an advantage there.

[BrainGlutton]

@xtisme

BTW, you do realize that in the past there was a time when there were two (or maybe more) sentient species on earth…right?

-XT

Or more. The recently discovered Homo floresiensis or “hobbit” for example – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis. Hard to tell if they were “sentient,” but they were tool users, probably much smarter than gorillas or chimpanzees.

For that matter, what about the sasquatch?

[What_Exit]

@John Mace

You want me to produce a cite that Cro-Magnons did not eat Neanderthals? No such cite exists. I can also state that no cite exists claiming Cro-Magnons did not eat tigers.

I’m simply saying that I’m familiar with the literature and I’ve never seen any compelling articles stating that this was a common practice, as der Trihs states. I think it’s up to him to produce a cite.

There appears to be archeological data that suggest that Cro-Magnons ate Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals. There also appears to be archeological data that suggest that Neanderthals ate Neanderthals. As I said, I think it is somewhere in the middle. I don’t think Cro-Magnons ate Neanderthals out of existence. Far more likely we just out-competed them for food and shelter.

I only asked for cites because both of you seemed to be speaking in absolutes on a subject where little is known.

Now I need to provide cites. Darn.

Jim

[John_Mace]

@xtisme

This I didn’t know. I always that that this was the boundary between species…the ability to produce viable offspring.

Sheep and goats
Lions and tigers
horses and donkeys
wolves and coyotes
camels and llamas
zebras and horses

to name just a few…

As for the issue of cannibalism, I have no doubt that some Cro-Magnons killed and ate some Neanderthals. In fact, I have no doubt that some Cro-Magnons killed and ate some Cro-Magnons and that some Neanderthals killed and ate some Neanderthals. We are Cro-Magnons, and we know that cannibalism exists in our species.

What I object to is the assertion that anthropologists believe that the demise of the Neanderthals was in any signifant way a product of Cro-Magnons eating them. There may well have been violence between the species, but we really don’t know. What evidence there is of any interaction is scant, at best. There are many hypothesis as to why the Neanderthals died out, but no common agreement among scientists.

[Schuyler]

@Ethilrist

Two sentient races? Jeebus, we’re having enough problems dealing with the one!

And I’m afraid that you’ll have to back up the claim that there is one sentient species on the planet. (I’ve got counter-cites at the ready - NASCAR, Britney Spears, gaucho pants, the list goes on.)

[John_Mace]

@BrainGlutton

Or more. The recently discovered Homo floresiensis or “hobbit” for example – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis. Hard to tell if they were “sentient,” but they were tool users, probably much smarter than gorillas or chimpanzees.

Yeah, there were even “regular” Homo erectus populations* alive in Asia up until about 30k years ago. AFAWK, there was a time not long ago when 4 distinct Human (ie, members of the genus Homo) species alive at the same time. It probably wouldn’t be a stretch to call any or all of them “sentient”.

*thought to be populations from which H. floresiensis derived.

[ultrafilter]

@jrfranchi

ultrafilter: Of course I would be on the very “Liberal” side and be demanding their equal rights when their sentience is proven.

I’m all for fair treatment, but what exact rights we give them should depend on how they think. By any reasonable definition, a seven year-old child is sentient, but I don’t think many people would argue that they should have the same legal rights as an adult.

@Sailboat

• communicating in language

Cite? If you’re thinking of Koko et al., be aware that those examples are extremely controversial.

[Inigo_Montoya]

Two sentient species. Are we talking about different species of very different ancestry like Star Wars’ Gungans & Naboo? or kinda similar & willfully seperate like Tolkein’s Elves/Dwarves, or wildly different yet of common decent like T’s Elves/Orcs? I throw this out to see if there is an element of depth that should also be considered. Douglas Adams has already given us the Dolphins as an example of a second sentience with values & goals completely opposite our own with regard to wars, buildings, & cars.

My point is twofold. Sentience appears to be the exception rather than the rule, otherwise we’d see more of it. And why should one sentient species necessarily even want to interact with another? The OP asks:

what happens when the first animal speaks up and demands the rights of a person

. I think this is a flawed and androcentric supposition because the converse, humans demanding the rights of a porpoise or merman, sounds ridiculous. Humans do what humans do, the other species does what it prefers. Maybe there would be interaction of mutual benefit, or maybe conflict over mutually desired resources. But it doesn’t make sense to assume a dolphin would want to have the same rights as a human any more than a Bushman would want the same rights as a Canadian. Mutual respect seems a reasonable compromise as it is just as likely the other species would consider it a great honor for a human to be invited into their society.

[What_Exit]

Some Cites:
http://www2.roguecc.edu/art/wpeterson/prehistory_cave_art_neolithic.html

100000BC. Evidence shows Neanderthals practice cannibalism to survive the cold. Brains and marrow have high contents of fat and protein.

http://www.leakeyfoundation.org/newsandevents/n4_x.jsp?id=3342

A growing body of evidence, such as piles of human bones with clear signs of human butchery, suggests cannibalism was widespread among ancient cultures. The discovery of this genetic resistance, which shows signs of having spread as a result of natural selection, supports the physical evidence for cannibalism, say the scientists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/462048.stm

Neanderthals were cannibals: Gory evidence uncovered in France reveals that the early humans in the region ate one another.
Cheek muscles from children were filleted out, tendons were sliced and skulls were cracked to remove brains.

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Human%20Nature%20S%201999/neanderthal_cannibalism_at_moula.htm

The inference of Neanderthal cannibalism at Moula-Guercy is based on comparative analysis of hominid and ungulate bone spatial distributions, modifications by stone tools, and skeletal part representations.

Jim

[What_Exit]

@ultrafilter

I’m all for fair treatment, but what exact rights we give them should depend on how they think. By any reasonable definition, a seven year-old child is sentient, but I don’t think many people would argue that they should have the same legal rights as an adult.
…snip…

I would settle for the rights of a minor child. I wish to stop the killing and maiming. Once sentience was proven, if we could get them even minor rights it would be a big step forward to stopping the Japanese and others from killing cetaceans.

Jim

[Der_Trihs]

@jrfranchi

There appears to be archeological data that suggest that Cro-Magnons ate Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals. There also appears to be archeological data that suggest that Neanderthals ate Neanderthals. As I said, I think it is somewhere in the middle. I don’t think Cro-Magnons ate Neanderthals out of existence. Far more likely we just out-competed them for food and shelter.

I only asked for cites because both of you seemed to be speaking in absolutes on a subject where little is known.

I wasn’t speaking in absolutes about cannibalism :

IIRC the present evidence is that they - or at least many - were killed and eaten by the Cro-Magnon; Neaderthal bones with butchering marks have been found at Cro-Magnon sites.

As far as this goes :

@jrfranchi

In fact there’s a theory - that I agree with - that humans systematically killed all our near-human relatives. You will note that nothing with better tool use than chimps survived. Which brings me to this :

I still think that’s the simplest explanation why all our closest rivals are gone. Simple competition wouldn’t likely kill them all. Why are they all gone, unless they were hunted down.

@jrfranchi

Now I need to provide cites. Darn.

Jim

Still looking; still nothing better than third party mentions.