# A serious question for gun control advocates: effect of loosening gun laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127 "2016-04-25T21:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/61 "2016-04-27T18:57:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > It wasn’t willingly, that’s for sure. He was under significant pressure and reversed to stave it off. He ran on a gun control platform in part, and independent of anything else his administration has done, he’s been totally impotent on gun control. Took all of Bloomberg’s money and couldn’t get anything done - I think they had a falling out. Bloomberg actually ran ads against McAullife after he caved. McAulliffe got screwed during that election. Every poll had his taking over the Virginia senate until the gun control guys came in and offered to spend money supporting Democratic candidates. He had a real chance to get expanded medicare. He was never going to win the house but with the control of the senate they could keep pass a bill and the house would have to explain to their constituents why they aren’t taking free money that could save lives. But he blew it to try and get some of that gun control money and now he is effectively a placekeeper governor. Democrats are in severe danger of losing Virginia in 2016 based on the gun control debate. Just about every swing state swings at least in part on gun control and that door tends to swing in one direction. You win very few swing states by coming out strongly in favor of gun control. Which is why I was so surprised to see Hillary come out so strongly in favor of gun control to attack Bernie Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/62 "2016-04-27T19:08:58Z")
Feinstein’s _Assault Weapons Ban of 2013_ got 40 votes in the Senate. You can’t really call it a fringe issue not supported by mainstream Democrats. [Here’s the vote](http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/senate/1/101): Kirk R-IL Sanders I-VT Baldwin D-WI Blumenthal D-CT Boxer D-CA Brown D-OH Cantwell D-WA Cardin D-MD Carper D-DE Casey D-PA Coons D-DE Cowan D-MA Durbin D-IL Feinstein D-CA Franken D-MN Gillibrand D-NY Harkin D-IA Hirono D-HI Kaine D-VA Klobuchar D-MN Lautenberg D-NJ Leahy D-VT Levin D-MI McCaskill D-MO Menendez D-NJ Merkley D-OR Mikulski D-MD Murphy D-CT Murray D-WA Nelson D-FL Reed D-RI Reid D-NV Reckefeller D-WV Sanders D-VT Schatz D-HI Schumer D-NY Shaheen D-NH Stabenow D-MI Warren D-MA Whitehouse D-RI Wyden D-OR Apologies for any typos, I retyped the list by hand. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/63 "2016-04-27T19:21:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > When I asked for examples, I meant some shootings that actually happened where your proposed changes would have made a positive difference. You can google “road rage shootings” and find many such instances. Those are typical examples of people acting impulsively with a gun. If they didn’t have a gun at all or were less impulsive with their gun, it’s unlikely many of those shootings would happen. Another example is when someone comes home to find their spouse in bed with a lover. The impulsive person with a gun nearby may kill the couple in that moment of rage. If they don’t have a gun, the determined person may still track down the lover and kill them at a later time (perhaps even with a newly purchased gun), but it’s less likely. That would be the difference between second degree (kill in the moment) and first (premediated). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/64 "2016-04-27T19:38:40Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > You can google “road rage shootings” and find many such instances. Those are typical examples of people acting impulsively with a gun. If they didn’t have a gun at all or were less impulsive with their gun, it’s unlikely many of those shootings would happen. > > Another example is when someone comes home to find their spouse in bed with a lover. The impulsive person with a gun nearby may kill the couple in that moment of rage. If they don’t have a gun, the determined person may still track down the lover and kill them at a later time (perhaps even with a newly purchased gun), but it’s less likely. That would be the difference between second degree (kill in the moment) and first (premediated). I suspect that “road rage killings” make up a miniscule fraction of any given year’s homicides. The same goes for “found wife in bed with another man” killings (although, the broader category of domestic violence killings is a more significant portion of homicides, and some suicides). ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/65 "2016-04-27T19:43:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I suspect that “road rage killings” make up a miniscule fraction of any given year’s homicides. The same goes for “found wife in bed with another man” killings (although, the broader category of domestic violence killings is a more significant portion of homicides, and some suicides). I also agree with that. But the increased training suggestion was one of the few times I thought the restrictions made sense and could lead to actual improvements rather than just adding an irrelevant hassle that wouldn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/66 "2016-04-27T19:47:38Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I also agree with that. But the increased training suggestion was one of the few times I thought the restrictions made sense and could lead to actual improvements rather than just adding an irrelevant hassle that wouldn’t change anything. Adding additional restrictions, licensing, training, and “hassle” on the off chance it might mitigate a miniscule fraction of homicides is silly. That’s one of the reasons that “assault weapon” bans are silly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/67 "2016-04-27T19:53:46Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Hard to say. No other first-world nation has gun homicide rate as high as 1/2 of US, so there’s no example to go by. I ask again: \*What’s your plan for significantly reducing the murder rate in the USA via gun control? \* or just admit-you got nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/68 "2016-04-27T20:08:38Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I also agree with that. But the increased training suggestion was one of the few times I thought the restrictions made sense and could lead to actual improvements rather than just adding an irrelevant hassle that wouldn’t change anything. Given that accidental deaths from firearms are very very low, what more do you think training will accomplish? Training is marksmanship, gun safety, etc. It’s not therapy and isn’t even tangentially connected to impulse crimes. This is why calls for “more training” are often hollow and a thin fig leaf for additional barriers. > [@filmore](#): > > You can google “road rage shootings” and find many such instances. Those are typical examples of people acting impulsively with a gun. If they didn’t have a gun at all or were less impulsive with their gun, it’s unlikely many of those shootings would happen. This isn’t even close to being on point. You were responding to a comment about your proposal to have tiered requirements based on the power level of the firearm. The example asked for was a situation where a person armed with a lower powered weapon would have been just fine but a higher powered one had a bad result. This response is not at all on point. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/69 "2016-04-27T20:10:51Z")
filmore, Did you know that the Virginia Tech shooter used a .22 pistol with 10-round mags (basically, one of the least powerful firearms on the market) to do most of his killing? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/70 "2016-04-27T20:34:57Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > I would think that loosening of gun laws would lead to more impulsive uses of guns, such as road rage, workplace anger, settling disagreements, use in family disputes, etc. But that was my point: apparently it didn’t, despite the “Dodge City” and “Blood in the Streets” claims that it would. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/71 "2016-04-27T20:43:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > filmore, > > Did you know that the Virginia Tech shooter used a .22 pistol with 10-round mags (basically, one of the least powerful firearms on the market) to do most of his killing? I agree it wouldn’t help in that case. I think I’ve said a few times that it wouldn’t help with premeditated killings. If someone wants to kill and takes the time to plan it out, there’s really not much to stop them. If they can’t get a gun, there’s many other ways to kill. > [@Bone](#): > > Given that accidental deaths from firearms are very very low, what more do you think training will accomplish? Training is marksmanship, gun safety, etc. It’s not therapy and isn’t even tangentially connected to impulse crimes. This is why calls for “more training” are often hollow and a thin fig leaf for additional barriers. Training would not be about preventing accidental shootings where the gun accidentally goes off. It’s a way of filtering out people who have a tendency to act impulsively and will use the gun because they are angry or panicked. > [@](#): > > This isn’t even close to being on point. You were responding to a comment about your proposal to have tiered requirements based on the power level of the firearm. The example asked for was a situation where a person armed with a lower powered weapon would have been just fine but a higher powered one had a bad result. This response is not at all on point. If the only thing you can get without training is a rifle, then it’s not as likely the road rager is going to use a rifle to shoot someone while driving just from a practical matter of operating the rifle while driving. If they have a handgun, then they can easily shoot someone. I would guess that the use of handguns in road rage incidents far outnumber the number of rifles. So if you have to go through some level of training to access handguns, fewer people will have handguns. As an example, consider pilot training. You don’t get to fly a plane in all conditions just because you know how to start it up, take off, and land. You are put through a number of training scenarios to ensure you will react calmly and logically even in very dangerous situations. If someone gets flustered every time a warning light comes on, they won’t get their license because they won’t be a safe pilot. I think it would be beneficial if access to guns had something similar. If there is some type of training where it would be harder for hotheads to get guns, you’d have fewer cases of people reacting impulsively with guns out of anger (e.g. shooting at someone because they pulled into your driveway). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/72 "2016-04-27T20:58:35Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Training would not be about preventing accidental shootings where the gun accidentally goes off. It’s a way of filtering out people who have a tendency to act impulsively and will use the gun because they are angry or panicked. That’s not training - that’s screening. Do you get the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/73 "2016-04-27T21:35:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s not training - that’s screening. Do you get the distinction? Good point. It’s not so much training on how to use the gun and shoot. It’s screening to make sure that the people less likely to use guns responsibly have a harder time to get them. I see markmanship or other gun-centered training as helpful as a screening process to weed out the hotheads. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/74 "2016-04-27T23:11:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Obama has pushed a number of gun control measures: [Live Updates: What the President is Doing to Keep Guns Out of the Wrong Hands | whitehouse.gov](https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/01/04/live-updates-what-president-doing-keep-guns-out-wrong-hands). Some of those include a ban on certain types of firearms (“assault weapons”), common rifle ammunition (M855), banning social security recipients with representative payees from buying guns, etc. So no. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bloomberg? > > Most of the Kennedies? > > O Malley, > > And even if they don’t advocate a complete ban now, their stated positions will shift if it becomes politically possible. Bloomberg is not even a Democrat, and how many Kennedies are even in national office anymore or within spitting distance of the White House? The problem to me is, you disproportionately worry about what some small time politician will do if the world went a complete 180 instead of looking at what they can do given their abilities now, and some people take that worry and magnify it into an excuse to why they can’t vote Democratic. Excuse me if I don’t find that convincing. I don’t worry about Martian invasions, neither should you worry about gun bannings > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I thought I was responding to something you said. If I gave that impression, I apologize. I have no desire to discuss the why one should or should not make a case for keeping gun rights. I’m much more of a gun safety justification guy ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/75 "2016-04-28T02:32:29Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > So no. Your question was has he tried to ban guns. The answer is yes, he tried to ban guns, ammo, and ownership rights, and failed miserably. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/76 "2016-04-28T03:19:49Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Do you not care that gun suicide has a far higher success rate than any other method? I think he considered suicide a basic human right. Effectiveness is a good thing. > [@filmore](#): > > One thing I would like to see for tightening of laws is to make it harder for impulsive people to get guns. One proposal I read was that to get more powerful guns, you had to demonstrate more proficiency. For example, anyone 18 or older could get a 22 rifle. To get a 22 handgun, you had to have a certain marksmanship score. As the guns got more powerful, you’d have to have a higher score. Obviously basic gun handling skills should be part of any training. But I could care less that the person could hit the broad side of a barn. I care that they know not to shoot at barns! Most rifles can easily penetrate barn siding allowing the bullet to hit anything on the other side. It is more important that people learn things like this than be expert marksmen. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/77 "2016-04-28T13:57:30Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > So no. How did you get a “no” from my answer? He ABSOLUTELY has tried to ban guns. Are you trying to claim “no” because he didn’t try to ban ALL guns at once? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/78 "2016-04-28T16:26:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How did you get a “no” from my answer? He ABSOLUTELY has tried to ban guns. Are you trying to claim “no” because he didn’t try to ban ALL guns at once? Not speaking for YogSothoth specifically, but the typical gun control proponent would argue that banning SOME guns is not banning guns. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/79 "2016-04-28T18:20:33Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > argue that banning SOME guns is not banning guns. disingenuously, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/80 "2016-04-29T21:10:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > filmore, > > Did you know that the Virginia Tech shooter used a .22 pistol with 10-round mags (basically, one of the least powerful firearms on the market) to do most of his killing? You have a cite for that? Because I thought that the glock 19 did most of the killing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127.md?page=5)