# A serious question for gun control advocates: effect of loosening gun laws **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127 "2016-04-25T21:29:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/101 "2016-05-03T18:57:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A ban is total. Anything less than a ban is a restriction or(if you must) a partial-ban. I acknowledge that you, Yog, and perhaps others share this view. I thnk it’s comical pretzel logic, but what can you do. Under your construction, every single type of firearm can be restricted and as long as there is a single firearm allowed, then that would not be a gun ban. Would you consider the phrase “Obama never ever tried to ban guns” equivalent to “Obama never ever tried to ban all guns”? The concept of “total” is not contemplated in a [traditional definition of the word ban](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ban). So when the phrase “ban guns” is used, the only requirement is that there were multiple guns being forbidden or prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/102 "2016-05-03T19:59:33Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How do you explain the fact that all new model semi-auto pistols are banned from sale by FFLs? Do you not consider that a ban? How do you explain that you can’t own a nuke? Is that a firearms ban? I’m serious, I want an answer to that question. Americans can’t own every type of weapon imaginable, every type of firearms or personal protection devices available, does that equate to a ban on the whole thing? Or is it just maybe you guys are trying to equate in the minds of the voting public a partial ban to a whole ban? > [@Bone](#): > > Is it your contention that only a 100% ban is a ban? Because that’s a serious disconnect in language use. This is what **HurricaneDitka** was commenting on in post #83: > > This is up is down kind of linguistic pretzel logic. > > A: Let’s ban To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn. > B: You want to ban books? > A: That’s not banning books. It’s only banning books. > B: Wut? You forgot something: > [@](#): > > A: That’s not banning books. It’s only banning books. That should read “all” and “some”. As in “That’s not banning\*\* all\*\* books. It’s only banning **some** books” The false equivalency of assuming “all” and “some” are synonyms will never be correct. Never. > [@Bone](#): > > I acknowledge that you, Yog, and perhaps others share this view. I thnk it’s comical pretzel logic, but what can you do. Under your construction, every single type of firearm can be restricted and as long as there is a single firearm allowed, then that would not be a gun ban. That you refuse to admit there is a continuum of choices from ban to total unrestricted access is what’s more comical. Until you believe otherwise, there’s no debate ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/103 "2016-05-03T21:15:15Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > How do you explain that you can’t own a nuke? Is that a firearms ban? I’m serious, I want an answer to that question. Americans can’t own every type of weapon imaginable, every type of firearms or personal protection devices available, does that equate to a ban on the whole thing? Or is it just maybe you guys are trying to equate in the minds of the voting public a partial ban to a whole ban? Let’s go through your questions: [ol] [li]A nuke doesn’t qualify as “arms”.[/li][li]Because a nuke is not a firearm, a ban on nukes is not a ban on firearms. A ban on nukes is also not a ban on wagons.[/li][li]That Americans can’t own every type of weapon imaginable, etc. that does not equate to a ban on the whole thing - for most interpretations of what you are construing as “the whole thing”.[/li][li]No - I’ve never equated a partial ban to a whole ban.[/li][/ol] A ban is a ban. A total ban is a total ban. These are different, do you agree? > [@](#): > > That should read “all” and “some”. As in “That’s not banning\*\* all\*\* books. It’s only banning **some** books” Really? Where are the “all” and “some” in your 1st and 3rd sentences here: > [@YogSothoth](#): > > Obama never ever tried to ban guns. He supported a ban on a small type of guns. Therefore, he never tried to ban guns. ? > [@](#): > > That you refuse to admit there is a continuum of choices from ban to total unrestricted access is what’s more comical. Until you believe otherwise, there’s no debate Oh I know there is a continuum. The denial of reality and the English language when you try to equivocate on that continuum, or when Czar says plainly that unless there is a total ban then it doesn’t count as a ban…that’s what’s funny. I pose to you the same question that I did to Czar - **Would you consider the phrase “Obama never ever tried to ban guns” equivalent to “Obama never ever tried to ban all guns”?** ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/104 "2016-05-04T00:06:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > **Would you consider the phrase “Obama never ever tried to ban guns” equivalent to “Obama never ever tried to ban all guns”?** I would consider that equivalent. You wouldn’t? Also, can I buy a handgun in California or not? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/105 "2016-05-04T01:13:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Also, can I buy a handgun in California or not? Sure. Lots of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/106 "2016-05-04T01:19:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. Lots of them. So handguns are not banned in California? What’s the problem then? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/107 "2016-05-04T01:23:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Also, can I buy a handgun in California or not? I honestly couldn’t say - what are your qualifications? > [@Slash1972](#): > > So handguns are not banned in California? What’s the problem then? Your coyness notwithstanding, see post # 89. All new model semi-auto pistols are banned from sale by FFLs. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/108 "2016-05-04T01:24:46Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I honestly couldn’t say - what are your qualifications? > Your coyness notwithstanding, see post # 89. All new model semi-auto pistols are banned from sale by FFLs. YOUR coyness notwithstanding, apparently I can go to California right now and buy a handgun. Are you disputing that fact? I have no background information to disqualify me. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/109 "2016-05-04T01:57:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > YOUR coyness notwithstanding, apparently I can go to California right now and buy a handgun. Are you disputing that fact? I have no background information to disqualify me. Yes, I am disputing that fact based on the appearance you are not a CA resident. Are you? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/110 "2016-05-04T02:15:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Yes, I am disputing that fact based on the appearance you are not a CA resident. Are you? You are disputing the fact that a CA resident, with nothing in their background to disqualify them from purchasing a handgun in accordance with the laws of California, can purchase a handgun? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/111 "2016-05-04T03:07:45Z")
Now you’ve changed the scenario. You were talking about yourself. So are you a CA resident? This is the same level of analysis that is required to think ban only means exactly a total ban. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/112 "2016-05-04T03:30:53Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Now you’ve changed the scenario. You were talking about yourself. So are you a CA resident? > > This is the same level of analysis that is required to think ban only means exactly a total ban. ok, that’s fine. I move to CA and change my residency, and have nothing in my background to disqualify me from owning a gun. Can I buy a handgun in CA or not? Or, you could stop being a jerk, and answer the question like a normal person would. Can a resident of CA, with no disqualifying marks in their history, purchase a handgun in CA? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/113 "2016-05-04T04:11:33Z")
That’s good. You’ve now moved to CA and can pass a backround check. Do you have a handgun safety certificate? On a separate note - do you think it’s a problem that no new model semi auto handguns can be sold by an FFL in CA? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/114 "2016-05-04T04:17:50Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > That’s good. You’ve now moved to CA and can pass a backround check. Do you have a handgun safety certificate? > > On a separate note - do you think it’s a problem that no new model semi auto handguns can be sold by an FFL in CA? Yes, i have a handgun safety certificate. I don’t care that every single model of every single handgun possible is not available for sale, on a separate note. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/115 "2016-05-04T04:22:41Z")
Ok. When was your handgun saftey certificate issued? * * * And to continue two streams at once, do you agree with the statemen that every single type of firearm can be restricted and as long as there is a single firearm allowed, then that would not be a gun ban? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/116 "2016-05-04T04:26:37Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ok. When was your handgun saftey certificate issued? > > * * * > > And to continue two streams at once, do you agree with the statemen that every single type of firearm can be restricted and as long as there is a single firearm allowed, then that would not be a gun ban? It was issued within the specified time frame of the applicable laws. No I don’t agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/117 "2016-05-04T04:32:56Z")
ThAt is not enough information to determine if you would be permitted to purchase. There needs to be an issue date for your handgun saftey certificate. Without being able to verify a validly issued handgun saftey certificate you would be denied. * * * Same scenario - all but one model firearm is banned. Is that a gun ban? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/118 "2016-05-04T04:38:32Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > ThAt is not enough information to determine if you would be permitted to purchase. There needs to be an issue date for your handgun saftey certificate. Without being able to verify a validly issued handgun saftey certificate you would be denied. > > * * * > > Same scenario - all but one model firearm is banned. Is that a gun ban? That seems overly nitpicky for a general discussion. Is it possible for me to purchase a handgun in CA or not? Can I, a normal citizen of the state of CA, purchase a handgun? Is it possible? Are there so many laws and such that I can’t purchase a handgun in CA? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/119 "2016-05-04T10:12:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > ok, that’s fine. I move to CA and change my residency, and have nothing in my background to disqualify me from owning a gun. Can I buy a handgun in CA or not? > > Or, you could stop being a jerk, and answer the question like a normal person would. Can a resident of CA, with no disqualifying marks in their history, purchase a handgun in CA? Let’s keep the personal remarks down, please. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127/120 "2016-05-04T16:42:04Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That seems overly nitpicky for a general discussion. I know right? Why not just redefine what words mean and ascribe or eliminate meaning of words entirely. No need to be nitpicky about equivocation. > [@](#): > > Is it possible for me to purchase a handgun in CA or not? Can I, a normal citizen of the state of CA, purchase a handgun? Is it possible? Are there so many laws and such that I can’t purchase a handgun in CA? As I said, you haven’t provided enough information for that determination. It may be possible, it may not be. There are many laws that would prohibit you from purchasing. These are just threshold items. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-gun-control-advocates-effect-of-loosening-gun-laws/753127.md?page=7)