# A serious question for Sam Stone on Factual Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881 "2021-12-11T12:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/341 "2022-09-22T15:45:30Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > In this worldview, there is no such thing as objective reality. Okay, new topic. Sam takes the sun rises in the East. John takes the sun rises in the West. I still think John wins, but now I’m really curious to see the argument that is made. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/342 "2022-09-22T15:58:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > But that’s the whole point. You just need to lie and obfuscate and make shit up, and then if you win the debate (based on public opinion I guess), then all of your points become TRUTH. Doesn’t even matter if you believe the crap you spew. Lol, no, I have genuine ethical issues about such an approach about historical topics. Want me to string bullshit theories regarding, say, the Avengers movies? No problem, I’ll compare Thor to Jane Austen or something. But not a MAGA topic, which is what this is. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/343 "2022-09-22T15:59:51Z")
Document, laptop, election, man, camera, TV. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/344 "2022-09-22T16:00:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sam takes the sun rises in the East. John takes the sun rises in the West. This is directionaly-ableist and should not be allowed on this Board. Is it _my_ fault I don’t know where I’m facing? #Triggered What about as the Earth revolves around the Sun… every 6 months doesn’t what was once East become West, and vice versa? **CASE CLOSE** ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/345 "2022-09-22T16:27:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > CASE CLOSE You’d think so, but remember, Hunter Biden’s laptop was left in Delaware, which is in the **EAST**. You don’t even think that there _was_ a laptop. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/346 "2022-09-22T16:48:59Z")
If I might make a suggestion, debate for/against Daylight Saving Time. When I was in about 5th grade, I remember a friend who was pissed off about the switch to/from Daylight Saving Time. So, naturally, I took the opposite point of view. I only had a vague idea of what DST was, exactly, but I was very good at situational argument (making my points off of my friends statements rather than any facts of my own). We were still arguing when class started and when the teacher found out what we were arguing about, he decided we should have a formal debate the next day, with the class voting on the winning argument. So I went home and read the encyclopedia (it was an early version of the wiki, for you youngsters) on DST. I realized that, in fact there were good reasons both for and against DST. So the next day, I went into class and made an emotional plea for DST (I think based on the importance of farmers and the threat of famine), while my friend laid out the facts. I won the debate. What is the lesson? It is that… [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Juxic3r-dDc/hqdefault.jpg "Meatballs (1979) - It just doesn't matter!") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juxic3r-dDc) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/347 "2022-09-22T17:13:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sam takes the sun rises in the East. John takes the sun rises in the West. There’s a legitimate argument here. Because of [geomagnetic reversal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal), there have been times when the sun would have risen in the west, if you consider the whole compass to get flipped over when magnetic north is coming from the other pole. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/348 "2022-09-22T17:48:26Z")
Not to get into a debate in a pit thread, but the cardinal directions are defined by how the planet rotates, not by the magnetic field. All a magnetic reversal would mean is that the north end of a magnet is now pointing towards the north pole, rather than the south. Err, as Sam would say, “Geomagnetic reversal doesn’t change the rotation of the Earth. Show me an example of a time that the planet reversed its rotation because of the magnetic field, or admit that you are wrong.” (except with a few spelling and grammar errors, and a few insults as to your character and intelligence.) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/349 "2022-09-22T20:26:22Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Q6NQcO9KTBY/maxresdefault.jpg "Muppet Sing Along | Movin' Right Along | The Muppets") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6NQcO9KTBY) If you can’t trust these guys, who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/350 "2022-09-22T20:28:29Z")
I think of that too whenever anyone mentions what direction the sun comes up in. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/351 "2022-09-22T23:55:29Z")
You know, I was giving thought to replying in the original thread, but I think this is a perfect illustration of the issues addressed in this thread. Decisions, decisions. Anyway, this has been bugging me since it happened, so here goes. Sam posted the following (you do not need to click, this is just documentary. Keep reading): > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/132): > > One more thing. Here is a graph of a supply chain: [[image] ](https://interestingblog.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/complex-interwoven-supply-chains.png) The first thing to notice is that it looks more like an ecosystem web than a human-planned thing. Also notice how many lines connect between suppliers. Every single line on that graph represents information and created value. Manufacturers don’t just pick suppliers from a phone book. They send out RFPs, they order samples and test them for conformance to their specs, and they work with supplier… In that post, is this graphic, which Sam calls a Supply Chain chart. [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52377868935_5541318995_b.jpg "complex-interwoven-supply-chains") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/52377868935/) Sam talked about how every line created information and value, that this was a miracle of modern freedom, that central planners couldn’t create such a thing, etc. But the chart is a fake. Rather, it’s a dumbed-down version of a McKinsey report [Risk, Resiliance, and Rebalancing in Global Value Chains](https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/operations/our-insights/risk-resilience-and-rebalancing-in-global-value-chains) which contains the same graphic - but without the colors and the fake labels: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52377463926_81103f546c_z.jpg "Dell2") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/52377463926/) (For example, there is no “maritime” classification in the McKinsey chart.) Now, the issue isn’t that Sam grabbed the wrong cite when a better one was available - we’ve all done that. The internet is a big place, after all. It was in the following exchange, when I, well, parodied Sam’s post with a picture taken from _The Devil’s Derivatives_ showing a CDO-cubed derivative. Using 95% of the same wording, I talked about how every line created information and value, that this was a miracle of modern freedom, that central planners couldn’t create such a thing, etc. (Again, you don’t have to read): > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/133): > > Here is a picture of a CDO-cubed deal put together by Merrill Lynch [[Imgur] ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/6325010078/) The first thing to notice is that it looks more like an ecosystem web than a human-planned thing. Also notice how many lines connect between derivatives. Every single line on that graph represents information and created value. Merrill didn’t just pick mortgages from a phone book. They depended on rating agencies, who themselves were paid by the very entities they were ra… The graphic: [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/6233/6325010078_d72df6e23b.jpg "Eyes of Satan") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/68782016@N08/6325010078/) The above graphic shows the supply chain of actual derivatives, with the derivative in the center being the one under review. Every node you see within the circle is another CDO-cubed deal, some (the thick one above the middle node) thicker than others (that small CDO at about 7pm of the central node, halfway to the edge). In addition, all the dots at the edge of the circle represent _additional_ CDO’s and their related investments. And each of the dots are invested in hundreds, thousands of mortgage bonds representing tens of thousands of American homes, these mortgage bonds not shown due to simplicity. So what did Sam do? Did he recognize the parody? Did he argue against his own words (which would have been delicious)? No… Oh, wait. That’s exactly what he did (you can read this one if you wish): > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/145): > > It may or may not be. It has an ‘inner ring’ of CDOs that invest with each other, an ‘outer ring’ of additional CDOs. Lines are drawn between the CDOs that invest with each other. Now, the graph represents the relationship between CDOs. How were those relationships established? What made one CDO decide to invest in another? Did a central planner make all those decisions? Someone in a head office decided that CDO X should invest in CDO Y but not CDO Z? Are all of those connections part … Which left me so gobsmacked I had to let him know what’s what: > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/146): > > Sam, I’m sorry, I don’t think you got my point. My post regarding the CDO chart was literally a direct lift of sections of your supply chain chart & post, modified to fit my example. In both posts, we literally make the same argument, but yours is about food and mine is about Buffet’s ‘financial weapons of mass destruction’. In short, Sam, the post was a parody meant to highlight how the same argument can lead to wildly different outcomes depending on the example being discussed. My apologies,… Sam hits back with the _of course I knew that!_ defense which worked so well after the 400 well-intentioned words cited above in post 145. > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/147): > > I recognized my own words. I thought you were using that graph to say it was identical to the other one in concept, so all my words should apply equally to it. I’m simply saying that the critical information about the graph wasn’t in evidence, which is how the connections were established in the first place. But I’m happy to drop it. But here’s the thing. I actually brought a supply chain graph. Sam brought a fake one. Sam then denied the reality of my _cited_ (it’s right there in the bottom-left corner of the graphic) supply chain… and why? > [@The Fundamental Rules of Economics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-fundamental-rules-of-economics/971357/140): > > No, it doesn’t. It’s a circle of things with straight lines connecting them. It’s logical and orderly. It’s exactly what I would expect a human planner to make. Look again at that supply chain graph, and see if you can spot the differences. The supply chain graph looks like a spontaneous network, like the world wide web or a brain network or an ecosystem. They are vastly different things. … because it’s a “circle of things” which “a central planner would make”. There’s a literal description in my graphic explaining that it is a core product of one of the Titans of American Capitlalism and Sam here is denying its reality because the artist decided to use straight lines and actual CDO’s rather than McKinsey’s more general, curvy, representation of what’s happening with Dell. And to Sam, that made my citation fake news. Because it lacked curved lines. To deny my own citation by presenting fake evidence while simultaneously arguing against his own words… Sometimes, team, I literally cannot believe that this site is free, as the entertainment value can be damn near infinite. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/352 "2022-09-23T00:10:34Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > because it’s a “circle of things” which “a central planner would make” It’s even more bizarre since the positioning of the nodes is completely arbitrary. It’s meaningless. Either someone ran an algorithm on it for some arbitrary criteria (like to minimize average edge length) or they just picked something that looked nice. You could rearrange the nodes to spell out SUPPLY-SIDE JESUS and it would convey exactly the same information. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/353 "2022-09-23T00:35:05Z")
Well, in my chart, the position of the nodes is directed by which CDO’s bought into that specific node (also a CDO), with the lines creating that node (CDO) indicating a different CDO investment. … if that makes sense. I guess what I’m saying is that a node is an actual CDO, so their positioning may not be as random as thought. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/354 "2022-09-23T01:01:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > if that makes sense. I guess what I’m saying is that a node is an actual CDO, so their positioning may not be as random as thought. It makes sense, but I would fold that into “arbitrary criteria”. My point is just that you can’t distinguish “natural” networks from “artificial” ones by just eyeballing it. The author of the CDO chart wanted the outer nodes to be an oval shape. Someone could have done the same for the Dell chart, but instead they were left in a more random arrangement. It’s the how the nodes are connected by edges that’s important, not the positioning. Mathematical graphs aren’t concerned with positions at all, only connectivity. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/355 "2022-09-23T01:02:13Z")
Ok, yes, that I agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/356 "2022-09-23T01:27:18Z")
And to be clear, I was agreeing with your original point. Sam thought the CDO chart was what “a human planner [would] make” because it was arranged in a circle and connected with straight lines. It would have been an unjustified claim even if it were true. There are, in some cases, ways to determine artificial from natural networks, but not by just eyeballing the node placement. ETA: Curvy vs. straight lines is also nonsense. They could have written out _The Wealth of Nations_ in flowery cursive and it would not matter. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/357 "2022-09-23T13:08:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > They could have written out _The Wealth of Nations_ in flowery cursive and it would not matter. Eh, maybe fewer people would have read it and thought they now knew everything about how economies worked. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/358 "2022-09-23T16:48:55Z")
One of the most revealing @Sam_Stone episodes on this board occurred in the somewhat recent thread: [Does POTUS Biden believe that he’s the smartest in the room?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-potus-biden-believe-that-hes-the-smartest-in-the-room/958330). Sam made a bunch of posts in that thread in service of the argument that Joe Biden is a bad bad guy because he exaggerates and embellishes. Leaving aside the fact that Biden can not be meaningfully compared to Trump in this area, Sam’s line of attack involves a fuck ton of exaggeration and embellishment. Just nakedly hypocritical and somehow simultaneously comically clueless that he was engaging in the very behavior that he was decrying. Just a dog shit human being really. No other way to look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/359 "2022-09-23T16:51:34Z")
So he’s a bad guy. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2022, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/360 "2022-09-23T17:10:19Z")
To be fair, I don’t know that he was the worst in that thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=19)