# A serious question for Sam Stone on Factual Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881 "2021-12-11T12:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/901 "2023-07-21T14:56:24Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > > > On the left, everything is someone else’s fault. > > The irony here is that on this board that argument is almost exclusively the province of right-wing posters like **Sam** and others past and present. It’s always everyone else’s fault that he’s lying, everyone else’s fault that he’s been revealed to be lying, and everyone else’s fault that he’s being held accountable for lying. One has only to consider the many “conservatives on this board are being persecuted” threads to encounter that attitude. I’m going to agree and disagree. I think @Sage_Rat is largely correct in saying “everything is someone else’s fault” but that rather than being left/right in nature, it’s American, if not flat out _human_ nature. Saying it is just left or right leaning is often an excuse to make one side look better at the expense of the other, when it’s damn prevalent. The difference is who they _blame_ for the problems, rather than a general dislike to accept responsibility. Do I agree _more_ with the progressive mitigating circumstances than those of the conservatives most of the time, sure, but I know which set of beliefs I find compatible with my own. To the specifics of _this board_ though, yeah, there are quite a few (Sage\_Rat’s excellent analysis notwithstanding) that shriek about groupthink and hiveminds without actually being able to support their feelings, or who argue on incredibly narrow rules-lawyer grounds. Which is . . . not normally a good look, but we do have several posters on the left leaning side who did similar disservice by attacking other posters for their beliefs in ways that I felt were equally dishonest. The loss of @Saintly_Loser due to direct attacks because he trusted his personal priest with his kids was one. Sure, failing to acknowledge that the Catholic Church has _big_ problems with abuse and coverups is dishonest, but the attacks on SL were pretty direct on judgement on the individuals around him. On the gripping hand though, that is one of relatively few exceptions that prove the rule _HERE_. I cannot more strongly stress that the prosecution complex about conservatives _on this board_ is largely a fantasy. Because anecdotally, I ghost some firearms boards as a target shooter, and the way they treat anyone who considers (even other gun owners) people in favor of additional legislation, or even generally ‘liberal’ policies on other subjects in ways that makes the harshest of Pit thread’s here look like an attack of clawless kitten paws. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/902 "2023-07-21T15:04:23Z")
Nicely said, @Kimstu; I was going to post about that but you handled it just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/903 "2023-07-21T15:07:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > On the left, everything is someone else’s fault. If you are a criminal, it’s because your parents mistreated you; if you’re bad at math, it’s because the system is racist against you; if you’re rich, it’s because you profited from the system, stole from others, and were given everything by your parens. _But you and I are on the right._ That means that when you say something that is factually untrue, it’s your fault. You did it. You’re to blame. And the only resolution is to _stop doing it_. And if you don’t and can’t, and you continue to suffer for the choices that you’ve made, then that’s good. People should reap the rewards of the good things that they’ve done and they should suffer the damages of their bad choices. You can’t really complain about it, it’s the way that life should be. Oh for fuck’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/904 "2023-07-21T15:20:44Z")
Yeah, I think @Sage_Rat is misinterpreting a tendency. A lot of times on the left, people believe that social forces have significant impact on an individual’s outcome, and that if we care about individual outcomes, it’s important to look at social forces. A lot of times on the right, people believe that individual choices have significant impact on social outcomes, and that if we care about society, we need to focus on changing individual choices. It’s a dispute that goes back to Marx and Hegel, if I remember my undergrad political philosophy courses correctly (and I may well not and welcome correction). IMO, either side, taken to extremes, is absurd: of course social forces impact personal welfare, and of course individual choices impact society, and a political philosophy that doesn’t acknowledge both is going to lead to foolish policy. @Sage_Rat gets it wrong when he describes the leftist position as: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > everything is someone else’s fault. If you are a criminal, it’s because your parents mistreated you; if you’re bad at math, it’s because the system is racist against you; if you’re rich, it’s because you profited from the system, stole from others, and were given everything by your parens. It’s much more common for leftists to see these issues in a nuanced fashion: - It’s not that " If you are a criminal, it’s because your parents mistreated you"; it’s that when we’re trying to reduce crime, let’s examine whether reducing childhood trauma can be effective. - It’s not that “if you’re bad at math, it’s because the system is racist against you”; it’s that when we’re trying to increase achievement scores for underperforming groups, let’s examine whether any aspects of our institutions are negatively impacting those groups in a way that could hinder achievement. - It’s not that " if you’re rich, it’s because you profited from the system, stole from others, and were given everything by your parents"; it’s that when we’re setting fiscal policies, including wages and taxation and the like, let’s consider how wealth moves through society, and not consider the accumulation of wealth as a sign that the person deserves to be wealthy. Instead, let’s prioritize ensuring that everyone has what they need, and that our policies lead to generally good outcomes. Of course there are some leftists who just aren’t very bright (I remember asking a dude in my undergrad politics class to define capitalism, and he said, “Greed,” and then stared at me belligerently). But it’s just as silly to treat all leftists as being dummies like this as it would be to treat MTG as the spokesperson for all rightwingers. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/905 "2023-07-21T15:23:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > as it would be to treat MTG as the spokesperson for all rightwingers. Yup, all she could find on Hunter Biden’s laptop was some dick pics. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/906 "2023-07-21T15:28:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yeah, I think @Sage_Rat is misinterpreting a tendency. A lot of times on the left, people believe that social forces have significant impact on an individual’s outcome, and that if we care about individual outcomes, it’s important to look at social forces. A lot of times on the right, people believe that individual choices have significant impact on social outcomes, and that if we care about society, we need to focus on changing individual choices. Any brief characterization is going to be insufficiently nuanced and precise; a crass stereotype. But, it’s not the central item of relevance for the topic, ergo it gets short shifted. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/907 "2023-07-21T15:30:53Z")
But if you’d framed it as a tendency, not in an absolute form, you wouldn’t be getting the pushback you’re currently seeing. I agree with **Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness** ’s examination of this. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/908 "2023-07-21T15:39:18Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > How many people have now suicided by mod here due to the pile-ons in the pit? > > But sure, I’m the problem. Just a ‘snowflake’. But I’m still here, putting up with shit that caused others to flame out. I’m just tired of it. Co-opting a conservative slogan to say: FUCK YOUR FEELINGS! ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/909 "2023-07-21T16:27:35Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Be honest and truthful and maybe the others will not love you - I am never on anyone’s list of favorites posters With this, you are officially on **my** list of favorite posters. (And politically we are at opposite ends of the spectrum) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/910 "2023-07-21T18:11:08Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Any brief characterization is going to be insufficiently nuanced and precise; a crass stereotype. Perhaps another key difference between conservatives and the left is the conservative comfort with dealing in crass stereotypes? You weren’t close-but-simplistic. You were wrong. What you wrote was _related_ to what actually happens, but as a brief statement, it was wrong. If you wanted a brief characterization, try, “For leftists, social forces have a strong impact on individual outcomes.” That’s still overly simplistic, but it’s not wrong in the way that you were. When you find that you’re comfortable with your use of crass stereotypes and feel no need to alter your behavior, you’ll also find that people pay a lot less attention to your words. As it’s not the central item of relevance for your topic, maybe avoid such easily-avoidable distractions. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/911 "2023-07-22T16:14:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If someone had said to me privately, “That hurt my feelings”, I would apologize profusely, because I never intended any such harm. The first time I saw it, some months ago, I responded immediately, but I got no response from you. That’s why I continued squawking. If you’d responded when I called you out about it, it wouldn’t have gotten to this. You could have apologized then and there. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/912 "2023-07-22T16:38:53Z")
You do realize he will point to the word “privately”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/913 "2023-07-28T12:10:20Z")
Just saw this and thought of @Sam_Stone and his complaints: > **[Not All Conflict is Bullying: Teaching Students the Difference](https://www.edutopia.org/article/bullying-social-conflict-middle-school?fbclid=IwAR2yOSY-TUlSHDk0IHU7e0_Q8ahe9Z_3o8HQatPGNGd19-IMVbNTpiQI_rc)** > > Everyday conflict can get in the way of academics in the middle grades. Kids need to learn the essential social competencies that will allow them to get back to productive learning. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/914 "2023-07-28T12:33:44Z")
I’m sure the if Sam were to read that article (heh, I know), he’d still claim he was being bullied. But the truth is that I can’t think of any other oft-pitted Doper whose pit threads have been full of so much constructive criticism. There are so many people who want Sam to be a productive member of the boards. But this is the reality of conservative martyrdom. It’s much easier to be a victim than to do the work of improving, because self improvement is a tacit admission that you were flawed in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/915 "2023-07-28T15:22:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > Did any of you ever consider the mental anguish you must have caused people to make them throw away years of being in a community and suicide by mod because they really want to be here but can’t take the pain any more? > > It sounds like you’re experiencing mental anguish and lashing out. Which, okay. **Start being more mindful of double-checking your claims.** You won’t find the insults vanish, but they’ll drastically decrease. This is in your control. Your refusal to take this simple, clear advice is also in your control. > > Act in a way that gets you the results you want. > > Your way of posting–where you post long, complex, confident arguments complete with cites, only the cites don’t say what you claim they say–is maddening. Perceptive, constructive, and well said. I’ll also re-iterate an earlier comment I made, as a general observation and not directed at you at all, but quite to the contrary, directed at those who have been less constructive. It’s that even granting the validity of each individual criticism in this thread, the sheer number of them constitutes a pile-on that ultimately seems out of proportion to the actual offenses committed by someone who, outside of the political arena and his lunatic political beliefs, is generally an intelligent and productive contributor. A mob attack of this magnitude really does impose a heavy burden. And no one individual is responsible; it’s a force that is greater than the sum of its parts. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Do I feel anything for shodan, or Slacker, or damuri, or YWTF, or Martin\_Hyde, or any of the other racist, transphobic,trolling assholes who are no longer here because they were outed for their bigotry? Naah. Not a thing other than delight at their absence. > > And I will delight when it’s you, too. You’re so clearly already circling the drain. And it’s _glorious_. Can you see how one might get the impression that you’re an intolerant, belligerent asshole? I don’t think you are, but you can definitely be more scathing than necessary sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/916 "2023-07-28T15:34:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s that even granting the validity of each individual criticism in this thread, the sheer number of them constitutes a pile-on that ultimately seems out of proportion to the actual offenses committed by someone who, outside of the political arena and his lunatic political beliefs, is generally an intelligent and productive contributor. Nah. Imagine a different offense: I blow my nose and wipe the boogers on my shirt. One person might say, “Ew!” at my behavior, because it’s gross. If a hundred people say “Ew!” is it a mob? Am I being bullied? Is it out of proportion to my offense? What if, other than this one habit, I’m a decent kind and goodlooking person–does that matter? Of course not. If I have an annoying habit and a lot of people tell me I’m being annoying, I can choose to continue annoying a lot of people and to continue reaping the consequences; or I can choose to change the annoying behavior. _It’s up to me._ Now, if what he were doing were inoffensive, it’d be different. I’m not down with bullying someone over their use of “Regards,” for example; spare me the rationalization of that. But @Sam_Stone’s behavior here is genuinely maddening and makes the board worse for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/917 "2023-07-28T16:15:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One person might say, “Ew!” at my behavior, because it’s gross. If a hundred people say “Ew!” is it a mob? Am I being bullied? Kinda, yeah. The first person says “ew”; that lets you know that you’ve done something that bothers people. The second person says “ew”; now you know that it’s not just one overly-sensitive person that you’ve bothered. The tenth person to say it, or the hundredth; what are they adding? At some point it’s just piling on and not really contributing anything useful. There are plenty of times on this board that I’ve read a post I disagree with, and would like to contribute, but there have already been so many others taking that post to task that I know anything I say will just get lost in the noise. I’ve often wished in those cases that the majority could just choose one spokesperson to make their strongest case, rather than a hundred posters trying to pursue a hundred different arguments in a single thread. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/918 "2023-07-28T16:25:23Z")
I will most politely disagree with your analysis, because while it’s in some senses a pile-on, it’s the same way a hourglass fills with sand: in general a small number of grains, but large in volume because of the accumulation over _time_. Each time SS does his shtick in a political tinged thread, he’ll get the 2-3 “ews” you mention, and depending on how egregious, 2-3 _here_. But he keeps DOING it in multiple threads. So it’s a small number, but it keeps accumulating, until the net result is impressive, and approaches the appearance of a pile-on. And that leaves out the accelerant that he’ll double, triple, or quadruple down on the points, often with even additional unsupported or flat out mis-attributed points, which each create new events of their own. Using the existing analogy, it’s like after the first few “ew” they dig their finger into their nose again, wipe it on the shirt and when “ew” occurs again, they say “What’s the problem, I used my left hand this time, it’s completely different!” And after that gets old they go “Fine, fine.” and repeat the action, but wipe it on their pants, and keep expressing disbelief that you’re _still_ objecting. And so on, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/919 "2023-07-28T16:49:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The question of whether an actual laptop existed was never the point (although I’m sure one can find a few people advancing that argument, because one can find people advancing _any_ argument on the internet). To be fair, early on a substantial minority, if not a majority, of Dopers were questioning whether the laptop actually existed. This was understandable given that the story seemed weird, (why would Hunter leave a laptop to be repaired and not pick it up? and how did Guilliani end up with it?) and that the principals involved Guilliani et. al were known liars. Later evidence and lack of dispute from the Bidens would make it clear that the laptop did in fact exist and belonged to Hunter, and so on that particular point the skeptics were wrong and the Biden accusers were right. But as you point out that is far below what is needed to actually prove corruption (Ping Pong Pizza also exists and Democratic operatives ordered from them). That Sam is milking this one win for all its worth really demonstrates how few and far between these wins are for Sam. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/920 "2023-07-28T17:02:20Z")
I don’t see how it’s a win for Silly Sammy. So Hunter had a laptop. Big fucking deal. I never denied he had a laptop. They’re pretty common, though I prefer a tower desktop myself. What I dispute is that there is any proof of wrongdoing on it. Rudy Fucking Giuliani was in possession of it, and if there was something really damning about the Biden’s on it Rudy would still be masturbating. Did he use his name to get ahead? Certainly. Was he a druggie? Certainly. Did he pay less tax than he should have? Certainly. Did he lie on a gun purchase form? Certainly. Does any of that matter a bit on Biden’s fitness for governing? NO. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=47)