# A serious question for Sam Stone on Factual Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881 "2021-12-11T12:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/121 "2022-07-31T13:37:57Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I don’t see a contradiction- I guess it’s nice that he put an effort into his replies, but we wish the replies weren’t filled with so much garbage. **Appreciate the effort; disappointed in the product** - Much like dealing with constipation. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/122 "2022-07-31T13:39:41Z")
[tips hat in appreciation] ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/123 "2022-07-31T16:31:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I realize that even a mild defense of **Sam** isn’t popular here, but am I the only one who sees a contradiction here? Maybe, but so what? Two different people had two different reactions to his post. What are they supposed to do, not post if their opinion doesn’t line up with what’s already been posted? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/124 "2022-07-31T17:27:05Z")
It’s almost like we **aren’t** a hive mind. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2022, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/125 "2022-07-31T20:21:01Z")
Shit. Just after the “Hive Mind” t-shirts have been ordered, too! ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/126 "2022-08-03T00:34:55Z")
In response to my pointing out that his claim that low flow toilets actually don’t save water is just the usual shit math from him, he comes up with this bit of pissing in the wind. > [@Do conservatives think there is something intrinsically good about gasoline/fossil fuel?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/261): > > If you want to conserve water, why flush just urine? That’s awfully wasteful. When I lived on the farm, the mantra was, “If it’s yellow, it’s mellow. If it’s brown, flush it down “ Imagine the reaction from the “fuck the earth, I got mine” libertarians like him if we tried to forbid people from flushing #1 with 3.8 gallons of water as God intended. Absolutely pathological inability to admit that he’s made a silly mistake. Heck have the decency to just ignore the debunking. But nooooo, our intrepid Job Creator and Wide Shouldered Economic Hero covers himself in #2 again. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/127 "2022-08-03T01:14:14Z")
One might imagine the response Republicans/conservatives would have to a Democrat/liberal suggesting that we actually follow “If it’s yellow, it’s mellow. If it’s brown, flush it down.” I mean it’s not like anyone can forget the overwhelmingly positive response Jimmy Carter got to the notion of putting a fucking sweater on and don’t turn your thermostat to 75° if you’re cold in the middle of an oil embargo. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2022, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/128 "2022-08-03T04:43:39Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > In response to my pointing out that his claim that low flow toilets actually don’t save water is just the usual shit math from him, he comes up with this bit of pissing in the wind. I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/129 "2022-08-05T19:05:04Z")
> [@Severe teacher shortage situation in America right now](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-teacher-shortage-situation-in-america-right-now/969091/21): > > I saw a poll of teachers a while ago (which I currently can’t find again…) which stated the top issues causing them to want to leave were, in order: > > - Pandemic related issues/burnout > - Classroom behaviour of students > - Student absenteeism > - Politics in schools (from both sides - Woke teachers feeling attacked, non-woke not liking being forced to teach woke politics and feeling marginalized) > - General lack of respect from admin, parents, students > - Pay/Benefits Putting this here as there only probably needs to be one pit thread dedicated to a person active at a time. “I don’t have a cite, but I saw a study somewhere where the 4th most important issue causing teachers want to quit is a tie between “woke” teachers being attacked, and non-woke teachers being forced to teach “woke politics” in school.” Sure, dude. Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/130 "2022-08-05T19:37:39Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > “I don’t have a cite, but I saw a study somewhere where the 4th most important issue causing teachers want to quit is a tie between “woke” teachers being attacked, and non-woke teachers being forced to teach “woke politics” in school.” Reminds me of Jim\_B and his [thread about Pakistani cab drivers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/body-odor-religious-freedom-and-pakistani-cab-drivers/934218). Basically, pretend you saw something in a cite but can’t find it anymore, and surely nobody can think it’s _your_ opinion. It’s a common tactic for people who want to sling around bullshit they make up but don’t want to be held accountable for it. (It doesn’t work.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/131 "2022-08-05T19:38:48Z")
To be honest, that would have worked a whole lot better without the cite. More amusing, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/132 "2022-08-05T19:46:35Z")
Benefit of the doubt, there seem to be three basic possibilities for that mysterious poll of Sam’s: 1. There is a different poll/survey of teachers in the COVID age out there that I haven’t been able to locate, whose findings Sam accurately reproduced from memory though he can’t find the link (in which case, as I said in the thread, respect: I can’t reproduce ordered lists from memory like that); or 2. Sam is accurately remembering a source that was purporting to describe the January 2022 NEA survey that I summarized in [this post,](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/severe-teacher-shortage-situation-in-america-right-now/969091/52) but which severely distorted its findings (in which case, he needs to stop using that highly unreliable source); or 3. What Sam saw was in fact the abovementioned NEA survey, but what he remembered (and claimed) was a severely distorted garbled version of its findings (in which case, dude, google that ish before you go around asserting definitively what it “stated”, just like the rest of us imperfect-memory mortals have to do). I pass over the alternative possibility that he just deliberately misrepresented the NEA survey and then pretended that he couldn’t find a cite for it, since I hope Sam wouldn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/133 "2022-08-05T20:00:37Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > “I don’t have a cite, but I saw a study somewhere This phrase should only be replied to with “Pull the other one, it’s got bells on. And fuck off while you’re doing it.” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/134 "2022-08-05T20:03:26Z")
A good rule of thumb is that if you want to say something controversial, best bring a cite. And you better make sure the cite actually says what you claim it says, and that it’s reliable. If none of that’s true, people are going to call you to task for it, and they are totally entitled to. One advantage of doing this, which I’ve found personally, is that sometimes in looking up a cite you figure out you’re wrong. Then you have a chance to avoid making an ass of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/135 "2022-08-05T20:53:12Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > One advantage of doing this, which I’ve found personally, is that sometimes in looking up a cite you figure out you’re wrong. Oh man, story of my (online and elsewhere) life. “Claim X is indisputably confirmed conclusively refuted by Cites W, Y and Z, as I was TOTALLY already aware when I started writing this post, yup uh-huh absolutely!” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/136 "2022-08-05T20:55:00Z")
So, I am curious, exactly how many times have you stood over my shoulder as I post things on this message board? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/137 "2022-08-05T20:58:08Z")
Hey, I don’t need no demos to teach me how to post information that I just found out I had always been wrong about as though I had always known it. 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/138 "2022-08-06T00:04:12Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Basically, pretend you saw something in a cite but can’t find it anymore, and surely nobody can think it’s _your_ opinion. It’s a common tactic for people who want to sling around bullshit they make up but don’t want to be held accountable for it. > > (It doesn’t work.) It didn’t work for Audie Murphy’s character in one movie when the love interest called him out on it. Turned out the hero could not read and noticed people paid more attention to an assertion with a citation, even a nebulous one. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/139 "2022-08-06T00:20:53Z")
Sam can’t read? Huh. Interesting theory. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2022, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/140 "2022-08-06T00:55:27Z")
For the record, yes I can read. No, I am not a liar. Yes, I did read that at a cite, and spent half an hour this morning and couldn’t find it again. I suspect it’s either fallen so low in the search rankings that I couldn’t find it (or always was and I got there through a link), or perhaps I read it with one of my free reads and it’s now behind a paywall. I found a bunch of links to such polls that are paywalled for me. It’s also possible that one of Kimstu’s theories is correct. Perhaps someone added some editorializing to a description of the NEA poll, which is quite similar, and I didn’t catch it. And no, I don’t have much trouble remembering four or five items in an ordered list if I found them interesting. Most humans can. It’s when you get to more than 6 or 7 that humans start to struggle. Now, much as I really enjoy watching people dissect my character, psychoanalyze me and my ‘failings’ and call me names, I have better things to do. There’s got to be some paint drying somewhere that needs watching. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=8)