# A serious question for Sam Stone on Factual Errors **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881 "2021-12-11T12:32:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1461 "2023-12-15T20:20:14Z")
What foreign entanglements for what position? Is it disqualifying for a president to have relatives with foreign business interests? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1462 "2023-12-15T20:27:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If we take it as true that a person who wants a job dealing with deeply sensitive information should be completely free of foreign entanglement then “foreign entanglement” is our “crime”. It’s well that you put “crime” in scare quotes, because it still assumes some nebulous bad act. Surely it’s not a crime for Biden, especially when he was a private citizen, to meet people from foreign countries. And he certainly maintained relationships with foreign heads of state established when he was VP. If “foreign entanglements” is what we hang our hats on, we still (ISTM) need to establish what specific crime occurred, or was likely to have occurred. (For anyone inclined to jump on that last phrase, “was likely to have occurred” does NOT equal “could possibly have occurred.”) I know I’m repeating myself, but either I’m not making myself clear or there’s something I’m missing. A trigger for a criminal investigation must surely require the commission (or likely commission) of, well, a crime. The GOP has consistently failed to articulate one supported by evidence, unless the definition of evidence is so loose that it can be applied to assumed, but yet to be determined, “crimes.” It’s circular conspiracy theory logic. Yes, if we assume a crime was committed and concealed (and we don’t yet know exactly what crime), then all kinds of things can become “evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1463 "2023-12-15T20:38:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > It’s circular conspiracy theory logic. Yes, if we assume a crime was committed and concealed (and we don’t yet know exactly what crime), then all kinds of things can become “evidence.” Not to worry. Sam’s been asked over and over and over and over again to specify exactly what crime Joe is accused of doing. I’m sure we’ll hear back about this after his supper. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1464 "2023-12-15T21:01:48Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > What foreign entanglements for what position? > Is it disqualifying for a president to have relatives with foreign business interests? I think he’s talking about Jared Kushner and his close personal relationships with oligarch Roman Abramovich and his wife (who is one of Ivanka’s closest personal friends), Saudi crown prince MBS and corrupt (convicted in Switzerland) Israeli mining magnate Beny Steinmetz. Kushner’s funding of Israeli West Bank settlements pre-2017 is also troubling. Of course we have checks and balances, so I’m sure someone with so many troubling associations with shady international figures could never get a security clearance. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1465 "2023-12-15T21:19:07Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Of course we have checks and balances, so I’m sure someone with so many troubling associations with shady international figures could never get a security clearance. 😁……. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1466 "2023-12-15T21:34:26Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/4I7U3a7LNcU/hqdefault.jpg "S03E17 - Steve Sax and Unsolved Murders") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I7U3a7LNcU) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1467 "2023-12-15T21:36:24Z")
😄 Yeah, that’s a pretty good comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1468 "2023-12-15T21:38:21Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m sure we’ll hear back about this after his supper. Or, if we’re lucky, he could take another 3-month supper. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1469 "2023-12-15T21:59:04Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Dajcie mi człowieka, a paragraf się znajdzie; translated to English more literally as “give me the man; there’ll be a paragraph for him” Not that it matters, but a more literal translation would be “give me a man/person, and a paragraph [section of law] will be found (or even more literally “will find itself,” as the reflexive _się_ is in the Polish)” I think there’s a slight nuance of meaning lost by not translating it as “will be found” or “will find itself” as “znajdzie” is a form of the verb “to find” and indicates more willful action than the verb “to be.” ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1470 "2023-12-15T22:12:58Z")
You kick _all kinds_ of linguistic ass. But I imagine you know that. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2023, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1471 "2023-12-15T23:21:35Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Well, actually we don’t have evidence that a murder has been commited, but there could have been. He was in town when it happened. That’s not proof but it _is_ evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1472 "2023-12-16T01:25:16Z")
Ah yes, it all fits. We have evidence that he is a murderer because he was in town when we have evidence of a murder, and the evidence we have of the murder is that there was a person in town who we have evidence is a murderer. Not proof but a whole lot of evidence all leading conistently to the same conclusion and tied in a neat little bow. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1473 "2023-12-16T06:26:48Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > If “foreign entanglements” is what we hang our hats on, we still (ISTM) need to establish what specific crime occurred, or was likely to have occurred. If you have to establish that it happened before you can collect evidence then I feel like you’re at a catch-22 because there’s no way to establish that it happened minus collecting evidence and asking questions. If you’re investigating someone for Top Secret clearance, it’s not accusatorial to ask questions and follow up on loose aspersions. It’s just how the process works. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1474 "2023-12-16T06:46:38Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you’re investigating someone for Top Secret clearance, it’s not accusatorial to ask questions and follow up on loose aspersions. It’s just how the process works. Granting someone security clearance is _by design_ a fishing expedition. As you say, there’s no other way it could work. Investigating a _crime_ is the opposite. A crime has occurred! That’s what you start from. - A driver caused an accident and fled? Who was it, where are they? Someone got a partial plate! Check that out! - Someone in a mask robbed a bank! Who were they? Where’s the ill gotten goods? Check cameras! Witnesses in the bank? - Someone burned down a house! The owner for insurance? Some random asshole? Cui bono? You start from a _crime_ then figure out the rest. There’s no crime here. There’s not even a _theory_ of a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1475 "2023-12-16T07:21:48Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > You start from a _crime_ then figure out the rest. There’s no crime here. There’s not even a _theory_ of a crime. I believe the crime is “Biden stole the election “. I’m not kidding; this is what these numb-nuts think. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1476 "2023-12-16T07:28:31Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Investigating a _crime_ is the opposite. A crime has occurred! That’s what you start from. I really don’t have anything to add to what squeegee posted. Investigating a crime kinda, sorta requires…a crime. Calling something evidence of a crime in the absence of a crime is circular nonsense, the stuff of conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1477 "2023-12-16T08:38:07Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I believe the crime is “Biden stole the election “. I’m not kidding; this is what these numb-nuts think. Don’t forget Biden Crime Family. It’s right there in the name, how could you question the family didn’t commit crimes? If they didn’t commit crimes, they wouldn’t be the Biden Crime Family. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1478 "2023-12-16T17:31:42Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Granting someone security clearance is _by design_ a fishing expedition. As you say, there’s no other way it could work. And anything that you discover would, later, become **evidence** put into the documentation for why you were rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1479 "2023-12-16T17:38:51Z")
Are you under the impression Joe Biden is under review for some level of security clearance? ---
**Author:** ![TheTooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/919ad9/32.png) [@TheTooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheTooth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881/1480 "2023-12-16T17:44:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, they keep accusing you of _lying_. If you stopped doing that, people would be much more amenable to hearing your opinions. I wouldn’t be. He’s UCP scum. Being honest about it wouldn’t change anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-serious-question-for-sam-stone-on-factual-errors/955881.md?page=75)