# A simple debate..Re Terri Schiavo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210 "2005-03-18T21:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/1 "2005-03-18T21:35:44Z")
Should the government outside of the judicial system be able to decide when someone should die? My thoughts… It’s scary. If they can decide when you die what stops them from controlling everything else in your life? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/2 "2005-03-18T21:48:44Z")
Well, let’s see - the judicial system is meant to decide cases based on existing law, and the legislative branch has the job of deciding when existing laws don’t cover some situations and make them do so. The courts also get to decide whether those new laws conflict with what’s in the constitution. Does that answer your question? On the other hand, I would propose a different question: “Should the government outside of the judicial system decide when someone should die?” As in the Terri Schiavo case, I strongly thing the answer is “no, they shouldn’t.” Actually, I think she’s already dead, it’s just a question of how long do they keep her corpse going. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/3 "2005-03-18T21:55:24Z")
[quote] “Terri is not terminal,” he said. “If we feed Terri … she will live another 30 to 40 years.” He described Schiavo as “responsive,” though he acknowledged she functions at the level of a 6- to 11-month-old child. She recognizes her family, he said. “She teases. She plays. She smiles. She tries to talk.” Schiavo also can breathe and swallow on her own, he said. Asked why, if she can swallow, a feeding tube is necessary, Gibbs said he has inquired whether Schiavo could receive food by mouth, and “courts in Florida have said no. The order is to stop all food and water.”[/ [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/4 "2005-03-18T22:34:58Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Should the government outside of the judicial system be able to decide when someone should die? The courts are interpreting the law, but the leigislative branch MAKES the law. That is so obvioius, I feel like an idiot saying it… > [@](#): > > It’s scary. If they can decide when you die what stops them from controlling everything else in your life? The constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/5 "2005-03-18T23:09:24Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > **Define dead[** Where is her soul? Is it in heaven or hell, or stuck in her body? If the former, she’s dead. If the later, she’s alive. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/6 "2005-03-18T23:27:10Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Where is her soul? Is it in heaven or hell, or stuck in her body? If the former, she’s dead. If the later, she’s alive. Excuse me? She’s alive and breathing. On her own. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/7 "2005-03-18T23:37:01Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Should the government outside of the judicial system be able to decide when someone should die? In certain cases, there isn’t any choice. There would be cases without a next of kin to make decisions, in which case someone has to do it. Obviously, this isn’t the case with Terri Schiavo. She clearly has a next of kin who is willing to make the decision for her, and just as clearly she is being used as a political football. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/8 "2005-03-19T00:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Reeder] > [@](#): > > “Terri is not terminal,” he said. “If we feed Terri … she will live another 30 to 40 years.” > > He described Schiavo as “responsive,” though he acknowledged she functions at the level of a 6- to 11-month-old child. She recognizes her family, he said. “She teases. She plays. She smiles. She tries to talk.” Schiavo also can breathe and swallow on her own, he said. > > Asked why, if she can swallow, a feeding tube is necessary, Gibbs said he has inquired whether Schiavo could receive food by mouth, and “courts in Florida have said no. The order is to stop all food and water.”[/ > > [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html) An important note here is that Gibbs is the _lawyer_ of Terry’s parents and not a doctor. What else is he going to say? Meanwhile the actual doctors that have examined her in person think she’s a veg with no hope of improvement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/9 "2005-03-19T00:25:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Where is her soul? Is it in heaven or hell, or stuck in her body? If the former, she’s dead. If the later, she’s alive. :dubious: So do you have some reliable test to determine the status/location of a person’s soul? If not, what you say is useless, to say the very least. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/10 "2005-03-19T00:29:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: So do you have some reliable test to determine the status/location of a person’s soul? If not, what you say is useless, to say the very least. If they’re Putin, you can just look into their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/11 "2005-03-19T00:34:59Z")
I’m a little confused. They’re going to let her starve to death? Why not give her an injection? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/12 "2005-03-19T00:44:58Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If they’re Putin, you can just look into their eyes. An excellent point! Many of the arguments I’ve heard for prolonging Schiavo’s bodily existence are grounded in religion, specifically christianity. That being the case, the condition of her soul _must_ be taken into account. The fact that we have no simple test for its status is irrelevent. If we keep her body alive for another 20 years, are we condemning her soul to separation from God for that duration, or is she already gone to her reward? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/13 "2005-03-19T00:48:28Z")
> [@TonyF](#): > > I’m a little confused. They’re going to let her starve to death? Why not give her an injection? Posted by **DoctorJ** [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5961417&postcount=59) > [@](#): > > From an ethics standpoint, there is a huge difference between doing something that will intentionally kill the patient (active euthanasia) and removing something that is keeping the patient alive (passive euthanasia). The former is why Jack Kevorkian is in jail, and the latter is something I did probably a dozen times last year. > > All of this talk about bullets in the head makes me want to post a longer Medical Ethics 101 about euthanasia, nonmalfeasance vs. patient autonomy, and futile care. Don’t have time to do it right at the moment, but I’ll see what I can do later. ---
**Author:** ![BabaBooey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@BabaBooey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BabaBooey)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/14 "2005-03-19T00:54:33Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > An excellent point! > Many of the arguments I’ve heard for prolonging Schiavo’s bodily existence are grounded in religion, specifically christianity. That being the case, the condition of her soul _must_ be taken into account. The fact that we have no simple test for its status is irrelevent. If we keep her body alive for another 20 years, are we condemning her soul to separation from God for that duration, or is she already gone to her reward? How so? If that’s the case, then one could apply religious arguments to ANY issue. What if a significant number of Jews took positions in congress and began insisting that their religion based diet should be forced upon all US citizens? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/15 "2005-03-19T01:01:55Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > She’s alive and breathing. > > On her own. Did you take High School Biology? The part of your brain that tells your body to breathe is not the same one that rules speech, cognition, logic, emotion, motor skills or how to do any other thing that distinguishes humans from paramecium. Anacephalic (born without a brian) babies can survive for a few days as well. Who knows how long _they’d_ stick around if we put them on ventilators and gave them feeding tubes? And yet it is SOP to let them go with dignity (In Canada anyway). Terri’s high brain function is permanently gone. The grey matter just doesn’t exist any more. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/16 "2005-03-19T01:08:09Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Did you take High School Biology? The part of your brain that tells your body to breathe is not the same one that rules speech, cognition, logic, emotion, motor skills or how to do any other thing that distinguishes humans from paramecium. Anacephalic (born without a brian) babies can survive for a few days as well. Who knows how long _they’d_ stick around if we put them on ventilators and gave them feeding tubes? And yet it is SOP to let them go with dignity (In Canada anyway). > > Terri’s high brain function is permanently gone. The grey matter just doesn’t exist any more. So she’s just laying there staring into space? ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/17 "2005-03-19T01:48:25Z")
I don’t know what she’s doing, but apparently it’s enough to tape for hundreds of hours and edit into fifteen minutes of footage that makes it look like she is “reacting”. I wish I could find all the MedDoper posts on PVS, but I don’t have enough time tonight, [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5964040&postcount=10) post of mine in the other thread has links to three other Terri threads in which the fact that she is brain-dead, is discussed. The Schindlers keep using phrases like “brain-damaged” to make people think there is hope for Terri, but there is no actual hope for Terri. She’s just a shell now, and even if she _is_ more than a shell (not likely), she will never, ever, be anything more than what she is right now (excluding **Doctor J** ’s suggestion of retraining her swallowing reflex, which is apparently unhelpful as she would still risk aspirating food). ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/18 "2005-03-19T01:53:17Z")
That would be assisted suicide, so-called ‘mercy killing’, which is illegal in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/19 "2005-03-19T01:54:46Z")
> [@capacitor](#): > > That would be assisted suicide, so-called ‘mercy killing’, which is illegal in Florida. That was answering TonyF’s question about injection. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210/20 "2005-03-19T01:57:26Z")
> [@TonyF](#): > > I’m a little confused. They’re going to let her starve to death? Why not give her an injection? Yes, they are going to stop feeding her. This is SOP. It happens every day in hospitals and hospices around the country. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-simple-debate-re-terri-schiavo/295210.md?page=2)