# A slightly more complicated grammar question... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 31, 2000, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579 "2000-07-31T18:47:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mothra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mothra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mothra)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/1 "2000-07-31T18:47:21Z")
Actually it’s part grammar, part pronunciation, but I wanted something snappy for a subject name :). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by missbunny in the thread “A simple Grammar Question”._ > \*\*3. You should put the commas and periods inside the quotation marks because that’s the correct way to do it in American English. > > 1. “Often” with a pronounced “t” is acceptable according to my _Merriam-Webster Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary_ – it says that “often” is an alternative of “oft,” both derived from Middle English; hence the prounced “t.” > \*\* **re point 3.:** Could you give an example of this? It’s just that in British English, I’m sure the punctuation that _isn’t_ part of the quote goes outside the quotation marks (a.k.a. speech marks). I wonder which was the original rule. **re point 4.:** I’m not sure what you mean by “acceptable”. I thought the dropping if the ‘t’ was just a question of accent. In British English (again), the ‘correct’ pronunciation (according the the Oxford English Dictionary) is always to pronounce the ‘t’, but people rarely do this in practice. Is common practice just the step before it becomes “acceptable”. In American English, you also hear the ‘tt’ in words like “bottle” and “little” sounded more like a ‘d’ sound. Is this reflected in the phonetic description in American dictionaries? Do you have a phonetic symbol for this sound or is it similar to the British ‘glottlestop’ where the ‘tt’ is replaced with a neutral vowel sound (commonly called the ‘schwar’). Do _any_ Americans pronounce it as a definite ‘t’ sound (many British people don’t). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/2 "2000-07-31T19:05:18Z")
There’s a good description of quoting style in the Jargon File, which is a great computer hacker’s lexicon. It supports your claim that British usage is moving more toward the style you describe. Browse some of the rest of the site while you’re at it, it’s funny and scholarly at the same time (not unlike certain weekly columnists we all know and love). [http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/Hacker-Writing-Style.html](http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/Hacker-Writing-Style.html) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/3 "2000-07-31T19:06:59Z")
I can’t offer anything on point 4, but here’s what the Jargon Dictionary has to say about point 3: > [@](#): > > Interestingly, a similar style is now preferred practice in Great Britain, though the older style (which became established for typographical reasons having to do with the aesthetics of comma and quotes in typeset text) is still accepted there. “Hart’s Rules” and the “Oxford Dictionary or Writers and Editors” call the hacker-like style `new’ or ‘logical’ quoting. This turn British English to the style Latin languages (including Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan) have been using this style all along. The “logical quoting” style includes punctuation within quotes only if they relate to the quote. Thus, if you have a complete sentence inside quotes, your period goes inside as well. OTOH, a list of quoted items broken by commas would show the commas outside the quotes. The logical style is common among programmers in particular because of the difficulties caused by extraneous punctuation in string-values. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/4 "2000-07-31T19:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > re point 3.: Could you give an example of this? It’s just that in British English, I’m sure the punctuation that isn’t part of the quote goes outside the quotation marks (a.k.a. speech marks). I wonder which was the original rule. You’re correct. British English has the punctuation outside the quote marks: BritEng: He said, “I’m leaving”. AmerEng: He said, “I’m leaving.” This is a matter of style, not grammar. The American form came when typesetters had problems with the periods and commas. Putting them inside the quote kept it from breaking off. Re: often The original pronunciation of the word had a silent “t.” However, people started seeing the “t” there and assumed it should be pronounced. The silent “t” is more common, but a large number do pronouce it “oft-en.” The same process happened with words like “comfortable” (original pronunciation has 3 syllables, not 4), “kiln” (the “n” was once silent – potters supposedly are the only ones who use the original pronunciation), and “victuals” (pronounced “vittles”). Re: tt Most dictionaries use “tt” to represent the sound in “bottle,” even though it is often pronounced “dd.” Most people, when asked, will deny they do say “dd.” And in my area, it’s common to drop the “tt.” Thus “kitten” is pronounced “ki’in” with no consonent sound. ---
**Author:** ![mothra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mothra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mothra)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/5 "2000-07-31T19:21:27Z")
Well two separate general things have clearly happened. Some Middle English words such have survived in American English but have fallen out of use in British English. With some words, the reverse is true. As regards pronunciation, the American accent partly derived from the most accent that prevailed in the 1700s, which can still be recognised in the English ‘west country’ accent. I’m sure you Americans know full well that your culture has all but replaced ours in England, mainly through the abundance of American films and TV shows we get over here. We already wear the same clothes and eat the same food (pretty much) and Wal-Mart has just opened over here. I guess it’s inevitable that we’ll wind up speaking the same language eventually :). ---
**Author:** ![rackensack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@rackensack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rackensack)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/6 "2000-07-31T19:30:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balance \* > The logical style is common among programmers in particular because of the difficulties caused by extraneous punctuation in string-values. Not only by programmers, but also by those of us who, while otherwise being sticklers for observing American vs. British spelling and punctuation norms, have found it essential to maintain logical style in pointing quotations in technical documentation. When something’s quoted in a user manual to denote a string to be entered in a configuration file or dialog box text entry field, it’s vital that the quotes contain **only** the text to be typed. Rather than seem to be arbitrarily changing back and forth, I’ve adopted the practice of using logical quoting style throughout such documents. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/7 "2000-07-31T21:01:37Z")
Re often: M-W gives both pronunciations as equally acceptable. The dictionary entry reads like this: **of•ten** \’of-(t)en\ _adv_ {ME, alter. of _oft_} (Note: that “e” is supposed to be a schwa; I don’t know how to make one.) Re “tt” vs. “dd”: The “tt” in “bottle” does sound like “dd” as long as you say the word at the normal speed so that the sounds can glissand together. If you say “bot-tle” or “kit-ten” slowly, the “tt” is obvious. How about “At lan ta” vs. “Atlana”? I think people from Atlanta truncate the T - anyone out there who can verify? ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2000, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-slightly-more-complicated-grammar-question/27579/8 "2000-08-01T02:03:38Z")
When two or more pronunciations are listed in the dictionary, the first is usually the preferred pronunciation. My **New Shorter Oxford Dictionary** (which only rarely concerns itself with North American pronunciation), lists the silent-t pronunciation of **often** first. There is a growing trend of pronouncing what are supposed to be silent letters. Most of the people I know say _alms_ and _almond_ with the **l** pronounced. The silent-l pronunciation is preferred by grammarians on both sides of the Atlantic. The “tt” in words like _butter, batter, andbottle_ and the “dd” in _ladder_ are pronounced as neither a **t** sound nor a **d** sound in most North American dialects. ```auto phonetic symbol description example ---------------- ----------- ------- [d] voiced alveolar stop **d** ip [t] unvoiced alveolar stop hun **t** er [D] dental-alveolar flap ma **dd** er ``` The flap is (I believe) a liquid like _l_ and _r_. It is the sound of the **r** in Spanish to **r** o and some British pronunciations of ve **r** y but not like an ordinary English **r**. To me, it seems more like an unvoiced slightly trilled **r** than anything else, but that’s not how linguists describe it. Most American dictionaries make no distinction between the [t] an [D] sounds, but linguists do.