# A Smackdown of Confederate General/Hero Robert E. Lee **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527 "2014-07-19T13:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/21 "2014-07-19T19:11:03Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Moral opposition to slavery and loyalty to the United States WERE 19th Century ideals. Although loyalty to one’s own state was also an ideal in the (antebellum) 19th century, which is sometimes a hard thing to grasp in the 21st. Part of why Lee has generally been seen fairly sympathetically in posterity’s eyes is that on a personal level he was unenthusiastic and even opposed to the rebellion, but served anyways because he felt his first loyalty was to Virginia. He had a major crisis of conscience about this and didn’t firmly pick a side until several days into the war. Yes, from a strictly utilitarian standpoint he was fighting a war to preserve slavery. That doesn’t appear to have been his personal motivation however, unlike most of the major figures of the Confederacy who _were_ enthusiastic rebels. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/22 "2014-07-19T20:10:00Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > There were plenty of people in his time who thought he was utterly full of shit. Hell, there are plenty of people in this thread who are utterly full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/23 "2014-07-19T20:12:03Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Although loyalty to one’s own state was also an ideal in the (antebellum) 19th century, which is sometimes a hard thing to grasp in the 21st. Part of why Lee has generally been seen fairly sympathetically in posterity’s eyes is that on a personal level he was unenthusiastic and even opposed to the rebellion, but served anyways because he felt his first loyalty was to Virginia. He had a major crisis of conscience about this and didn’t firmly pick a side until several days into the war. Yes, from a strictly utilitarian standpoint he was fighting a war to preserve slavery. That doesn’t appear to have been his personal motivation however, unlike most of the major figures of the Confederacy who _were_ enthusiastic rebels. Shh. You’ll confuse all the outraged historians who wanted him and by correlation every single person who took up arms against the US executed as ‘traitorous fools’. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/24 "2014-07-19T20:23:12Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > I have to add obloquy to the long list of words I didn’t know existed. Yeah, me too! Now if I can get someone to compile that list, maybe put it into some kind of order, maybe, and I could get a copy, I’d really be on to something! 😃 RE General Lee: One hell of a cool car! It did jumps and shit! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/25 "2014-07-19T20:33:33Z")
I’m no southern apologist and I certainly believe the southern states attempted to break free in order to preserve slavery rather than any injustice inflicted upon them by the north. But I can just picture myself as a Texan, Virginian, or a Georgian looking at the prospect of the Union dissolving. Do I fight along side my friends, neighbors, and family members or do I take up arms against them? Lee did work towards reconciliation after the war. He didn’t want blacks to vote because he argued that they weren’t educated enough to do so. But he did support reconstruction efforts including free education for blacks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/26 "2014-07-19T20:46:11Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I just love it when people apply the values, practices, and ideals of the 21st century to people who lived in the 19th century and earlier. > > Robert Lee, and all the others were men of their times, a product of the education and values of their times. Every human being who has ever lived was a product of the education and values of their times. Everyone from Nelson Mandela to Adolf Hitler was a product of the education and values of their times. But some people are wrong, and some are right, and the Confederates were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/27 "2014-07-19T20:50:22Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Every human being who has ever lived was a product of the education and values of their times. Everyone from Nelson Mandela to Adolf Hitler was a product of the education and values of their times. > > But some people are wrong, and some are right, and the Confederates were wrong. Their politicians were wrong. The slaveowners were wrong. Those that took up arms rather than shoot their brothers had a very difficult decision to weigh. And that’s the not even taking into account the common man being fed a line of bullshit about ‘state’s rights’ and ‘Northern Oppresion’. And what about the slaveowning Texans who by force and completely illegally seized Texas from Mexico? Were _they_ traitorous fools? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/28 "2014-07-19T20:52:02Z")
> [@jayrey](#): > > I wonder if Lee had slaves of his own, besides those left to him by his father, that he had no intention of freeing in 1862. He had no desire to free his FIL’s, but the will was upheld in court. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/29 "2014-07-19T20:57:52Z")
The letter writer, Mr. Cohen, reveals his historical ignorance by saying that “in any other nation and time, the traitor’s execution would have been assured”. Nations from Spain to Ireland to South Africa have found it impossible and counter-productive to deal with the aftermath of civil conflict by mass execution. Amnesties to break the cycle of blood-letting are common. The association between slave-holding and the Tea Party is a pathetic Godwinization. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/30 "2014-07-19T20:58:28Z")
He was one of those people who was admired even by his enemies. Grant went out of his way to show him unusual honors of war at the surrender. Lincoln never called him a “traitor.” Lincoln, and most of the North (well, except for the fire-eating wing of the press) didn’t much use that language during the war. “Renegade” was pretty much the harshest term. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/31 "2014-07-19T21:00:09Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Shh. You’ll confuse all the outraged historians who wanted him and by correlation every single person who took up arms against the US executed as ‘traitorous fools’. No, not all of them. Their leaders, though? See Hermann Göring, Tojo, and Saddam Hussein. We aren’t always the gracious winners we were after the ACW. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/32 "2014-07-19T21:02:32Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And what about the slaveowning Texans who by force and completely illegally seized Texas from Mexico? Were _they_ traitorous fools? To Mexico? Yes, of course they were. I have no idea what point you think you are making. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/33 "2014-07-19T21:07:27Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > No, not all of them. Their leaders, though? See Hermann Göring, Tojo, and Saddam Hussein. We aren’t always the gracious winners we were after the ACW. The US didn’t execute Hussein. Lee was a battlefield general, and the US _did_ go after some generals of the Third Reich, but some of them are held to have been unfairly gone after, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/34 "2014-07-19T21:09:22Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Their politicians were wrong. The slaveowners were wrong. Those that took up arms rather than shoot their brothers had a very difficult decision to weigh. And that’s the not even taking into account the common man being fed a line of bullshit about ‘state’s rights’ and ‘Northern Oppresion’. I don’t disagree and I admit my use of the word “compatriot” in my earlier post was misguided, it’s far too broad a term. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/35 "2014-07-19T21:11:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > To Mexico? Yes, of course they were. I have no idea what point you think you are making. Well that winners of a revolution are bold, freedom-loving Revolucionarias and that the losers are vile traitors of course…unless those revolutionaries’ are commies. Then they’re just…commies. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/36 "2014-07-20T01:06:55Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Shh. You’ll confuse all the outraged historians who wanted him and by correlation every single person who took up arms against the US executed as ‘traitorous fools’. Slippery slope arguments only appeal to the weak-minded. Lee was not just another southerner who joined the Confederacy. He was the commanding general of the Confederate Army. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/37 "2014-07-20T01:11:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . . . Lee was not just another southerner who joined the Confederacy. He was the commanding general of the Confederate Army. Just to be hyper-pedantic, wasn’t he only the commanding general of the Army of Northern Virginia? Did the Confederate Army actually have a commanding general? Jefferson Davis was the “Commander in Chief,” but wasn’t a general officer. (Was he an officer at all?) (Not relevant to the real subject, I guess.) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/38 "2014-07-20T01:18:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The idea that Washington was fighting against repression is laughable. “His people” were rich, white men who owned land, and he was fighting so they would have to pay moderately fewer taxes. And in the process of doing so, he helped enshrine slavery in the highest law of the new nation, ensuring that slavery in the US would endure for decades longer than it would have had we remained part of the British Empire. Considering that Washington had no involvement in the drafting of the Constitution, which did enshrine slavery, I’d like to understand your argument for this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/39 "2014-07-20T01:23:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Just to be hyper-pedantic, wasn’t he only the commanding general of the Army of Northern Virginia? > > Did the Confederate Army actually have a commanding general? Jefferson Davis was the “Commander in Chief,” but wasn’t a general officer. (Was he an officer at all?) > > (Not relevant to the real subject, I guess.) Lee was appointed General-in-Chief of the Confederate forces in January, 1865. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/40 "2014-07-20T01:43:48Z")
Lee was not fighting on the Confederate side because he wanted to uphold slavery. He chose his side (after being asked to lead the Union Army) simply because he felt loyal to the state of Virginia (which came very close to abolishing slavery about ten years earlier) and felt obligated to defend his home. Virginia was slow to secede, waiting until after Fort Sumpter, and, unlike most other states, pointed to the attack as the reason, not upholding slavery, per se. There’s no doubt that South seceded because of slavery (they said so themselves), but many who fought for it were not invested in the slavery issue and were fighting primarily because the North was sending troops against them. Lee’s views on slavery at the time were that he was moderately in favor – neither rabidly in support of it, nor in support of emanicipation. He was influenced by only knowing his own slaves, which were generally well treated. He supported the institution, but probably would have accepted things if Virginia had emancipated its slaves. He also was willing to try to recruit slaves as soldiers in the late period of the war in exchange for a promise of emancipation, not something a rabid racist would ever consider. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527.md?page=3)