# A Smackdown of Confederate General/Hero Robert E. Lee **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 19, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527 "2014-07-19T13:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/41 "2014-07-20T02:03:47Z")
I’m sure we can argue about Lee back and forth all day. He was a complex man from a turbulent time. As a yankee I have no sympathy or misguided nostalgia for the confederate south. I think those that want to just pin the label of traitor on him are taking a very simplistic and 21st century view on him. But I do understand it. One thing I do know for certain, the letter in the OP is about the stupidest shit I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/42 "2014-07-20T02:13:44Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Virginia was slow to secede, waiting until after Fort Sumpter, and, unlike most other states, pointed to the attack as the reason, not upholding slavery, per se. > > There’s no doubt that South seceded because of slavery (they said so themselves), but many who fought for it were not invested in the slavery issue and were fighting primarily because the North was sending troops against them. Not to jump on you but this often comes up in discussions of the American Civil War. The United States did not attack the Confederacy. It was the Confederacy that started the war by attacking Fort Sumter. And I’m not talking “attacking” in some abstract legalistic sense - they began shooting at the fort with cannons. The United States didn’t send troops into the Confederacy until after the Confederacy had declared war on the United States. I’ve never heard of any maxim of international law which forbids a country from defending itself when it’s attacked. So if that was the issue Virginia decided to make a stand on, they were showing poor judgement. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/43 "2014-07-20T02:16:14Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Their politicians were wrong. The slaveowners were wrong. Those that took up arms rather than shoot their brothers had a very difficult decision to weigh. And that’s the not even taking into account the common man being fed a line of bullshit about ‘state’s rights’ and ‘Northern Oppresion’. > > And what about the slaveowning Texans who by force and completely illegally seized Texas from Mexico? Were _they_ traitorous fools? Silly question maybe, but if they didn’t take up arms how would they have shot their brothers? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/44 "2014-07-20T02:29:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The idea that Washington was fighting against repression is laughable. “His people” were rich, white men who owned land, and he was fighting so they would have to pay moderately fewer taxes. And in the process of doing so, he helped enshrine slavery in the highest law of the new nation, ensuring that slavery in the US would endure for decades longer than it would have had we remained part of the British Empire. [QUOTE=Rick Kitchen] Considering that Washington had no involvement in the drafting of the Constitution, which did enshrine slavery, I’d like to understand your argument for this claim. [/QUOTE] Also, Washington did not lead troops in a war started for the purpose of enshrining slavery. The idea that American revolutionaries were rich and fighting merely to lower their tax bills is a farcical claim, as is the suggestion (in the letter quoted in the OP) that the goal of tea partiers is to secede from the United States. Lee was a fine general, but not a great human being. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/45 "2014-07-20T02:34:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not to jump on you but this often comes up in discussions of the American Civil War. The United States did not attack the Confederacy. It was the Confederacy that started the war by attacking Fort Sumter. And I’m not talking “attacking” in some abstract legalistic sense - they began shooting at the fort with cannons. > > The United States didn’t send troops into the Confederacy until after the Confederacy had declared war on the United States. I’ve never heard of any maxim of international law which forbids a country from defending itself when it’s attacked. So if that was the issue Virginia decided to make a stand on, they were showing poor judgement. True, but Virginia seceded because the US set up a blockade against the Confederate states two days after Fort Sumter. It was a political mistake by Lincoln – it meant that he implied the South was no longer part of the Union (as the British ambassador pointed out to him, you don’t blockade your own country). Virginia’s rationale was that the Federal government was now attacking its own citizens (shooting at blockade runners). This broke the compact of the Constitution. As Virginia said, > [@Virginia Ordinance of Secession](#): > > The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention, on the 25th day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eight-eight, having declared that the powers granted them under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slaveholding States. Unlike other states, Virginia made no mention of slavery (other than to describe the Confederacy as “slaveholding states.”) and was seceding because of the blockade. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/46 "2014-07-20T03:08:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not to jump on you but this often comes up in discussions of the American Civil War. The United States did not attack the Confederacy. It was the Confederacy that started the war by attacking Fort Sumter. And I’m not talking “attacking” in some abstract legalistic sense - they began shooting at the fort with cannons. > > The United States didn’t send troops into the Confederacy until after the Confederacy had declared war on the United States. I’ve never heard of any maxim of international law which forbids a country from defending itself when it’s attacked. So if that was the issue Virginia decided to make a stand on, they were showing poor judgement. And not to come off as a Confederate apologist, but from their POV Fort Sumter was Confederate land and occupied by a force that refused to yield Confederate property. And I’m sure no one here doubts that Lincoln would have fired the first shot had the South not done it for him. Where and when, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/47 "2014-07-20T03:33:25Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Lee was appointed General-in-Chief of the Confederate forces in January, 1865. Thanks! I have actually read a fair amount on the subject, but that eluded me. Kinda late in the game… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/48 "2014-07-20T03:36:38Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Considering that Washington had no involvement in the drafting of the Constitution, which did enshrine slavery, I’d like to understand your argument for this claim. No involvement? President of the Convention. How does chairing the convention amount to “no involvement?” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/49 "2014-07-20T03:46:22Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Considering that Washington had no involvement in the drafting of the Constitution, which did enshrine slavery, I’d like to understand your argument for this claim. Washington was the presiding officer (the chair) at the constitutional convention that drafted the document. He also endorsed it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/50 "2014-07-20T04:00:15Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > And not to come off as a Confederate apologist, but from their POV Fort Sumter was Confederate land and occupied by a force that refused to yield Confederate property. The Confederates may have felt that they were entitled to Fort Sumter. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was still an attack against the United States when they shot at Fort Sumter. The Confederates were the side the started the fighting. Which was a mistake. The Confederates would have been a lot smarter if they had been patient and forced Lincoln to make the first attack. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/51 "2014-07-20T04:03:48Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Except one was fighting to free his people from repression and the other was fighting to keep another people under repression. > Little things like that just so happen to matter to some folks. Lee was fighting to free/keep free Virginia from the North/US. You really must keep up with 150 year old facts. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/52 "2014-07-20T04:32:39Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Lee was fighting to free/keep free Virginia from the North/US. You really must keep up with 150 year old facts. It matters not what his primary motivation was, the net effect of his effort was an attempt to keep another people under repression and he damn well knew it. Fuck him and fuck his justifications. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/53 "2014-07-20T05:36:50Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Lee was fighting to free/keep free Virginia from the North/US. You really must keep up with 150 year old facts. No, he wasn’t. Virginia joined the seceding states to preserve slavery. You must really read the various documents of secession from the seceding states so that it becomes crystal clear that the issue was slavery and nothing else. If in fact Lee was “fighting to keep free Virginia from the North/US” then he succeeded, as Virginia (and indeed all the shithole confederate states) are still utterly intact in their boundaries and still have their racist governments, now just lacking in slavery. I suppose a notable asterisk in this would be that the people of West Virginia broke away from Virginia because they weren’t fighting for slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/54 "2014-07-20T06:10:13Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Lee was fighting to free/keep free Virginia from the North/US. You really must keep up with 150 year old facts. How was Virginia freer as part of the Confederate States of America then it had been as part of the United States of America? The two countries had virtually identical Constitutions. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/55 "2014-07-20T10:45:22Z")
If Lee HAD been hanged in retribution he probably would have been even more of a hero than he is now and theirs a chance the CW would have restarted later on. Thing is Lincoln specifically told his underlings, right before his assassination, that there would NOT be any retributions like lynchings. He wanted to country to be unified. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/56 "2014-07-20T11:27:30Z")
If you have too many people on the losing side of a rebellion, you can’t execute them all if you want to promote reconciliation. We were all set to execute the traitors who fought for the Indian National Army after WW2 but the trials at the Red Fort proved highly unpopular with the Indian politicians and the people, who were already looking forward to independence, and there were a number of mutinies in the Indian armed forces about it which did not bode well for Anglo-Indian relations. In the end we curtailed the trials and most of them got away with their treachery. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/57 "2014-07-20T11:41:49Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If Lee HAD been hanged in retribution he probably would have been even more of a hero than he is now and theirs a chance the CW would have restarted later on. > > Thing is Lincoln specifically told his underlings, right before his assassination, that there would NOT be any retributions like lynchings. He wanted to country to be unified. If I remember correctly there was only one person executed for war crimes after the American Civil war, and that was the commandant of the infamous Andersonville prison. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/58 "2014-07-20T11:53:23Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > If I remember correctly there was only one person executed for war crimes after the American Civil war, and that was the commandant of the infamous Andersonville prison. And that case was mostly for show because the Union couldnt really pin anything on him and indeed, suppressed many a witness who tried to speak on that man’s behalf. So basically the Union had to find a “bad guy” somewhere and put his head in a noose to somehow show revenge for the many deaths at Andersonville. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/59 "2014-07-20T13:09:37Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Except one was fighting to free his people from repression and the other was fighting to keep another people under repression. > Little things like that just so happen to matter to some folks. Lee was fighting his government from stopping Virginia taking free labor from Blacks. Washington was fighting his government from stopping Virginia taking free land from Indians. I expect the next war in North America will involve a Virginian and free wifi. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527/60 "2014-07-20T13:35:18Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I’m sure we can argue about Lee back and forth all day. He was a complex man from a turbulent time. As a yankee I have no sympathy or misguided nostalgia for the confederate south. I think those that want to just pin the label of traitor on him are taking a very simplistic and 21st century view on him. But I do understand it. One thing I do know for certain, the letter in the OP is about the stupidest shit I’ve ever read. Fascinating, as has been the thread thus far. So it sounds like you are saying that Lee supported a wrong cause (Confederacy = slavery = wrong), but it was more complex that just that, so traitor does not apply? I am not sure what I am hearing you think is “the stupidest shit you’ve ever read”? From a “winners write history” standpoint, a losing general who betrayed the winning government to fight for the losing side is, by definition, a traitor. I can see why it may not have made sense to act on that from a reconciliation standpoint, but the assertion is legit in a black and white way that need not factor in the complexities of turbulent times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-smackdown-of-confederate-general-hero-robert-e-lee/693527.md?page=4)