# A Snitch Ticket, a moral dilemma? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939 "2010-09-07T16:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/21 "2010-09-07T19:22:13Z")
@ Sinaptic. You are correct re; post 4. (at least as I understand it). I can find no legal requirement that I provide information to the ticket send company. Let me add a few more facts. The Snitch ticket does NOT come from the police department. It comes from a private company that runs the camera service. The return address is “Traffic Enforcement Office” with an out of state address. The information they request is to be sent to their address, not the police department. The form provides three options when responding. 1. I sold the car on such and such a date, it wasn’t me. 2. I was the driver of the car. My name is etc. etc. etc. 3. The person driving the car is. Name, address, DL number, etc.etc. They obviously realize there is a problem identifying the driver and are seeking my help. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/22 "2010-09-07T19:47:36Z")
> [@godix](#): > > B) This isn’t _JUST_ about the ticket. The 5th amendment allows a person to not incriminate themselves in _ANY_ wrongdoing. It is possible that, in some situations, admitting to who was driving could implicate someone in a crime themselves. Granted, they’d probably be rather far fetched situations, but it is possible. So do you know every law in the country well enough to be absolutely positive that the OP answering this question can not be used a proof of some other wrongdoing? If you don’t, then the 5th amendment can still be a valid reason for refusing to fill out the form. No, that’s not a correct statement on what you need to claim the Fifth Amendment protection. > [@Estate of Fisher v. CIR](#): > > Ultimately, a “witness is not exonerated from answering merely because he declares that in so doing he would incriminate himself.” (citations omitted) It is the court that decides whether a witness’ refusal to answer is privileged. “To sustain the privilege, it need only be evident from the implications of the question, in the setting in which it is asked, that a responsive answer to the question or an explanation of why it cannot be answered might be dangerous because injurious disclosure could result.” (citations omitted) > > **The danger of self-incrimination must be real, not remote or speculative. (citations omitted) When the danger is not readily apparent from the implications of the question asked or the circumstances surrounding the inquiry, the burden of establishing its existence rests on the person claiming the privilege.** ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/23 "2010-09-07T19:49:32Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > @ Sinaptic. You are correct re; post 4. (at least as I understand it). I can find no legal requirement that I provide information to the ticket send company. > Let me add a few more facts. > > The Snitch ticket does NOT come from the police department. It comes from a private company that runs the camera service. The return address is “Traffic Enforcement Office” with an out of state address. The information they request is to be sent to their address, not the police department. The form provides three options when responding. > > 1. I sold the car on such and such a date, it wasn’t me. > 2. I was the driver of the car. My name is etc. etc. etc. > 3. The person driving the car is. Name, address, DL number, etc.etc. > > They obviously realize there is a problem identifying the driver and are seeking my help. I guess it’s not exactly the same thing, but my wife got a camera ticket a few months ago, and on that there were only two options on the first mailing: Your choices numbers 1 and 3. If you WERE the driver of the car you were instructed to do nothing, a second notice directly from the court would arrive later. And that’s what happened. I guess in that case what she received is not what you guys are calling a “snitch” ticket? This was in the San Francisco area. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/24 "2010-09-07T19:57:43Z")
[http://highwayrobbery.net/index.htm](http://highwayrobbery.net/index.htm) This website is mainly about California red light cameras, however, they do link to court decisions from around the country. It appears as if the snitch tickets don’t carry any legal weight. Also, there has been at least one case where a judge dismissed the ticket due to a blurry photograph (not a snitch ticket). [http://highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsDef1ItsNotMeTrial.html](http://highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsDef1ItsNotMeTrial.html) ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/25 "2010-09-07T19:58:24Z")
Bricker, re: response #2 in my post above yours…) _2. I was the driver of the car, my name is…_ Wouldn’t that be within the protection of the 5th amendment in that they are asking a driver to incriminate himself? Does the 5th. distinguish between ticket that are mere infractions and not misdemeanors or felonies? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/26 "2010-09-07T20:04:09Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Bricker, re: response #2 in my post above yours…) > > _2. I was the driver of the car, my name is…_ > > Wouldn’t that be within the protection of the 5th amendment in that they are asking a driver to incriminate himself? > > Does the 5th. distinguish between ticket that are mere infractions and not misdemeanors or felonies? I’m not licensed in your jurisdiction. And I’m not your lawyer, and you’re not my client. Since you’re asking me a question about a specific set of facts you’re dealing with, the best answer I can give you is: consult a lawyer licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/27 "2010-09-07T20:13:55Z")
@ Sinaptics. I saw that site too. However, I’m really leery about internet advice. @ Bricker. Sorry, it was meant as a general question, not a specific one. Let me see if rephrasing it helps any. Do 5th. amendment rights only apply to misdemeanors and felonies? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/28 "2010-09-07T20:16:34Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Bricker, re: response #2 in my post above yours…) > > _2. I was the driver of the car, my name is…_ > > Wouldn’t that be within the protection of the 5th amendment in that they are asking a driver to incriminate himself? > > Does the 5th. distinguish between ticket that are mere infractions and not misdemeanors or felonies? I think Bricker was commenting on the implication of the post that copping to the ticket may incriminate you in other crimes (i.e. I was on my way back from robbing a liquor store). In this instance you can’t just say that I refuse to answer because I may incriminate myself without the court having an idea of what you don’t want to incriminate yourself of. In other words, you can’t just cite a nebulous “I don’t want to incriminate myself” to avoid answering questions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/29 "2010-09-07T20:39:31Z")
Well if it was you, couldn’t you plead the 5th? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/30 "2010-09-07T20:43:14Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > @ Bricker. Sorry, it was meant as a general question, not a specific one. Let me see if rephrasing it helps any. Do 5th. amendment rights only apply to misdemeanors and felonies? No, they’ve applied to civil matters also since 1924. A traffic citation is typically a civil infraction. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/31 "2010-09-07T20:48:01Z")
I’m still not clear on what happens if you ignore the snitch ticket. If they send you a real ticket and put the fine on you, I’d take it to court with the blury photo and would assume it would be dismissed. I certainly wouldn’t feel any moral obligation to have the (absurdly high) fine paid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/32 "2010-09-07T20:50:07Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > @ Sinaptics. I saw that site too. However, I’m really leery about internet advice. > > @ Bricker. Sorry, it was meant as a general question, not a specific one. Let me see if rephrasing it helps any. Do 5th. amendment rights only apply to misdemeanors and felonies? No, fifth amendment rights are generally applicable to “violations,” as well. They are always not applicable to civil liability, so you can’t claim count on the Fifth to avoid making damaging admissions as the defendant in a lawsuit. But if the damaging admission would also expose you to criminal liability, you may claim the Fifth even in a civil proceeding. But the finder of fact is allowed to use that claim against you… in a criminal trial, the jury can’t use the fact that you didn’t testify against you. In a civil trial, they are allowed to conclude that you were hiding something damaging to your case. Remember that this is general information, and some specific fact about your specific set of factual circumstances may drastically alter what I said. That’s why your best bet is to consult a lawyer, who can talk to you, develpo a complete picture of all relevant facts, and offer the best advice from those facts. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/33 "2010-09-07T20:53:21Z")
I did not know that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/34 "2010-09-07T21:01:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, they’ve applied to civil matters also since 1924. A traffic citation is typically a civil infraction. But: > [@](#): > > Thus, in a civil case, the Fifth Amendment does not privilege from disclosure facts which simply would tend to establish civil liability but does protect witnesses from being required to make disclosures, otherwise compellable in the trial court’s contempt power, which could incriminate them in a later criminal prosecution. 8 Wigmore on Evidence Sec. 2254 (McNaughton rev. 1961) and discussion therein. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/35 "2010-09-07T21:14:10Z")
Why not simply answer #3: The person driving the car is **UNKNOWN**. I mean, take a look at the picture. Do you recognize the blob? Probably not. Do they really expect you to play detective, and track down which one of your many friends or relatives may have borrowed your car that day? You’re very busy. If they can’t figure out who was driving, I can’t see how they can expect you to do their work for them. Also, if you have clearly stated that it was not you driving (it was an Unknown person), I can’t see them having much success dragging you into court, where you simply need to point at the blurry picture and say “That is not me.” They have no proof that it is you. They have no case. I don’t think there is a law that compels you to act as a detective for this private company. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/36 "2010-09-07T21:24:36Z")
I can’t think of a reason to even _respond_ to a private company looking for that information. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/37 "2010-09-07T21:28:49Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I can’t think of a reason to even _respond_ to a private company looking for that information. Well, just to avoid complications for the OP. If he does no’t respond, the private company may simply assume that he admits he is the driver, and then he’ll have to go to court to say “I cannot tell who is the driver in this blobby photo.” If the OP responds with UNKNOWN, then he his clearly stating that he is not the driver. He can’t tell who the blobby photo is any better than they can. And the case should be closed. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/38 "2010-09-07T22:23:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@BlankSlate](#): > > > > I can’t think of a reason to even _respond_ to a private company looking for that information. > > Well, just to avoid complications for the OP. If he does no’t respond, the private company may simply assume that he admits he is the driver, and then he’ll have to go to court to say “I cannot tell who is the driver in this blobby photo.” > > If the OP responds with UNKNOWN, then he his clearly stating that he is not the driver. He can’t tell who the blobby photo is any better than they can. And the case should be closed. Just to be devil’s advocate – is that really going to work? Is the court really going to buy the argument that he doesn’t know who was driving his own car, just becasue the picture is blurry? What’s he going to say? “Maybe someone stole it that day and then returned it my garage.” Judges are a little smarter than that. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/39 "2010-09-07T22:52:43Z")
I’m certainly not going to lie if I go to court on this. The black blur driving the car does not fit my physical description and I can honestly state that I can not identify the driver from that picture. I hope that would be enough. That’s as far as I can go and remain honest with the court. The moral dilemma I faced and posted about is whether not snitching is acceptable behavior. Thanks Bricker for the answer above. I understand you’re not offering me advice with respect to this matter,etc. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939/40 "2010-09-07T23:06:22Z")
You are not talking to the police but this company, do you have to reply at all? Could you put ‘unknown’ for #3 > [@Bricker](#): > > I’m not licensed in your jurisdiction. And I’m not your lawyer, and you’re not my client. Since you’re asking me a question about a specific set of facts you’re dealing with, the best answer I can give you is: consult a lawyer licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Come on, for a ‘maybe’ traffic ticket ‘consult a lawyer’, you can do better then this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-snitch-ticket-a-moral-dilemma/552939.md?page=3)