# A Song of Ice and Fire \[Warning: some spoilers unboxed\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 8, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912 "2009-02-08T08:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/41 "2009-02-09T20:37:14Z")
Great series. Deep, complex, uncompromising, unpredictable and fun. I’ve read 'em all and love 'em all, but am resigned to a long wait for the next. I like Jaime for his knightly prowess, self-loathing, world-weariness and his redeeming struggle to be good, even though it goes against his innermost nature. I like Tyrion for his impishness, cunning and barely-concealed fury at the world. One of my favorite lines was when he was talking to his jerk of a father, who wanted him to go to a city (King’s Landing?) to rule it. Tyrion - resignedly - said something like, “I know, I know. Walls. Pikes. Heads.” :eek: 😃 I like Brienne because of her hard-dying illusions about chivalry and because she’s tough as nails and a good fighter to boot. Little Plastic Ninja, if you liked _Fevre Dream_ (one of my all-time favorite vampire books), you should also check out Martin’s _Tuf Voyaging_, a great scifi novel about war, environmentalism, overpopulation and absolute power, and _Sandkings_, a wonderful collection of short stories (the title story and “The Way of Cross and Dragon” are particularly good). _Dying of the Light_ is another excellent novel of his, about a world drifting away from its star. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/42 "2009-02-09T20:48:39Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I like Tyrion for his impishness, cunning and barely-concealed fury at the world. One of my favorite lines was when he was talking to his jerk of a father, who wanted him to go to a city (King’s Landing?) to rule it. Tyrion - resignedly - said something like, “I know, I know. Walls. Pikes. Heads.” :eek: 😃 Yep. That was when Tywin sent him to be Joffrey’s King’s Hand after Cersei made her first mess of things as Regent. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/43 "2009-02-09T21:13:48Z")
Speaking of Cersei, I think I must be a bit thick… I was re-reading some of her stuff a few days ago, and the more I read it, the more a little voice is saying, “She’s paranoid. As in, clinically-so.” Anyone else get this impression, just from her own POV’s? (And wow… Hoist by her own petard, much?) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/44 "2009-02-09T21:19:23Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > Speaking of Cersei, I think I must be a bit thick… I was re-reading some of her stuff a few days ago, and the more I read it, the more a little voice is saying, “She’s paranoid. As in, clinically-so.” > Anyone else get this impression, just from her own POV’s? > (And wow… Hoist by her own petard, much?) Delusional paranoia, for that matter. And megalomania. And narcissism. And bitterness over a woman’s role in Westeros (not that I can blame her on that one). I got that on a first-read. Examining Cersei in detail explains Joffrey completely. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/45 "2009-02-09T21:31:44Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > Speaking of Cersei, I think I must be a bit thick… I was re-reading some of her stuff a few days ago, and the more I read it, the more a little voice is saying, “She’s paranoid. As in, clinically-so.” > Anyone else get this impression, just from her own POV’s? > (And wow… Hoist by her own petard, much?) Honestly, I think its hard being unjustifiably paranoid in her position. Numerous armed factions are out to depose (and presumably kill) her son throughout most of the books, and even the people on her side are using him as a pawn to increase their own power. Like most of the other characters, her actions became more understandable as the series went on. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/46 "2009-02-09T21:55:29Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Thoros WAS a fraud, until his magic started to suddenly work. But Melisandre may be a huckster…she has real magic, but it may not come from Rh’llor. Remember when Maester Aemon advised Jon about the fact that Stannis’s blade didn’t give off heat? It should have, if it were real. Melisandre may be using real magic, but not actually be a Red Priestess. Lord only knows who she’s actually working for…the cabal that’s preparing Westeros for Danys, maybe? Exactly. Thoros made Berric Dondarrion’s sword burst into flame for his duel with Sandor, and it specifically states that the Hound flinched from its heat. None of Mellisandre’s powers had anything to do with fire. In fact, Renly’s last word before his brother’s shadow slit his throat was “Cold…” And **Little Plastic Ninja** , if you really want the full Martin experience, buy [Dreamsongs](http://www.amazon.com/Dreamsongs-I-George-R-R-Martin/dp/0553805452/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234216354&sr=8-1), a two-volume anthology of his best short fiction that also doubles as an autobiography. There’s some terrific stuff there. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/47 "2009-02-09T22:53:36Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > In this chapter he is shown reading a book on dragons. It describes dragonbone which is supposedly black because of high iron content. I wonder if this will be important later on. Perhaps some kind of magnetic weapon? Wasn’t iron protection against the undead (can’t remember what they were called)? Or am I making that up? I agree with **Alessan** that Coldhands is Brenden. I think that he’s undead, but somehow managed to retain his personality instead of becoming a mindless zombie. There may be other like him, and they may be the key to the troubles in the North. Whoever he turns out to be, I can’t wait for the next installment. Bran is possibly my favorite character. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/48 "2009-02-10T04:02:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Delusional paranoia, for that matter. And megalomania. And narcissism. And bitterness over a woman’s role in Westeros (not that I can blame her on that one). I got that on a first-read. Examining Cersei in detail explains Joffrey completely. Hm. I’ll buy Megalomania, but I’m not sure about the Narcisism. I’m intrigued by how it explains Joffrey. Can you elaborate? (And as for **Simplicio** , I didn’t mean to belittle that she has enemies. Its just that, reading from her PoV, she sees -everyone- as out to get her, and every little chance thing must definately be a set-up to murder her or her son.) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/49 "2009-02-10T04:51:08Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > Hm. I’ll buy Megalomania, but I’m not sure about the Narcisism. > I’m intrigued by how it explains Joffrey. Can you elaborate? Maybe narcissism about her family, rather than she herself? Cersei seems like a person who’s trapped in a society that devalues her because she’s a woman, but she’s determined to do what she wants regardless, and the only way to do that is to be the power behind the throne. That’s the whole REASON for killing Robert. She has to get Joffrey on the throne, someone she can control. But once that happens, not only is Joffrey not as amenable to her control as she thought he would be, but her father first puts her ugly, crippled brother in charge over her, then he himself. How it explains Joffrey is just that he’s pretty much what I’d expect from a mother who probably constantly holds his privileges up in front of the child’s face and constantly tells him how special those privileges make him. She didn’t realize she was creating a monster…she just thought she was creating a Lannister. I’m not sure how much difference there is. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/50 "2009-02-10T13:42:51Z")
When you say Brenden in the spoilers above, do you mean Benjen, the ranger? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/51 "2009-02-10T14:37:34Z")
Yeah, sorry. I’m lousy with names. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/52 "2009-02-10T14:52:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s the whole REASON for killing Robert. She has to get Joffrey on the throne, someone she can control. But once that happens, not only is Joffrey not as amenable to her control as she thought he would be, but her father first puts her ugly, crippled brother in charge over her, then he himself. Well, she kills Robert because Eddard Stark is about to tell him that Joffrey isn’t Robert’s son. She has to get Joffrey on the throne because both she and her son are in danger from Robert if she doesn’t. I’m not denying she wants power, but there’s more at stake in that situation than just power. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/53 "2009-02-10T15:20:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, she kills Robert because Eddard Stark is about to tell him that Joffrey isn’t Robert’s son. She has to get Joffrey on the throne because both she and her son are in danger from Robert if she doesn’t. I’m not denying she wants power, but there’s more at stake in that situation than just power. Yes, let’s keep in mind that the one unforgivable crime on Westeros is incest, and the children that result from it are pretty much headsman-bait as far as we’ve seen. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/54 "2009-02-10T16:01:18Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, sorry. I’m lousy with names. Yeah. _grins sheepishly_ Like I said, it’s been a while. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/55 "2009-02-10T16:17:30Z")
Apparently I am too. I read ‘Joffrey’ and somehow thought ‘Jamie’. Wasn’t sure where narcisim came in there… Although there can be arguments for it as their relationship is often looked at (by them) as being ‘halves of a whole’. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/56 "2009-02-10T16:32:55Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Yes, let’s keep in mind that the one unforgivable crime on Westeros is incest, and the children that result from it are pretty much headsman-bait as far as we’ve seen. > > -Joe I wouldn’t say incest was some unforgivable crime, the Targs did it constantly. I’m sure it was taboo and looked down on as it is now but the reason for the headsman is cuckolding the King, not who she did it with. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/57 "2009-02-10T17:40:41Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I wouldn’t say incest was some unforgivable crime, the Targs did it constantly. I’m sure it was taboo and looked down on as it is now but the reason for the headsman is cuckolding the King, not who she did it with. I seem to remember that Cersei and Jaime were totally convinced (even after Robert was dead) that the wider world learning about their incest would lead to the death of their kids. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/58 "2009-02-10T17:48:57Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I seem to remember that Cersei and Jaime were totally convinced (even after Robert was dead) that the wider world learning about their incest would lead to the death of their kids. > > -Joe Because she was trying to pass them off as kings. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/59 "2009-02-10T18:19:32Z")
Exactly. It strikes at the very basis of legitimate dynastic rule, and in Westeros is thus A Very Bad Thing. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/60 "2009-02-10T18:31:04Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Exactly. It strikes at the very basis of legitimate dynastic rule, and in Westeros is thus A Very Bad Thing. Didn’t the Targaryens get off this hinky, since they weren’t originally from Westeros and hence could claim “foreign customs” or somesuch? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912.md?page=4)