# A Song of Ice and Fire \[Warning: some spoilers unboxed\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 8, 2009, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912 "2009-02-08T08:45:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/61 "2009-02-10T18:52:47Z")
It also strikes me that the Targaryens were the type of family that ‘customs bowed to’. Sure, they committed incest. You didn’t like it? Just stand in line in front of the executioner. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/62 "2009-02-10T19:36:47Z")
I think it’s a bit of a nod to the divine right: the normal rules didn’t apply to the Targaryens because they were the Targaryens. They were the kings. They weren’t entirely human, even; they had the blood of dragons. It might not have been literal, at least if you didn’t believe that one prince (one of the Aegons?) who thought he was a dragon. It gets mentioned at some point: the dragon does not mate with the beasts of the field. Entertainingly, the Targaryens have a dragon on their coat of arms while the other families tend to have some animal or other – wolves, fish, bats… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![schnuckiputzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@schnuckiputzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schnuckiputzi)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/63 "2009-02-10T19:59:30Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > I think it’s a bit of a nod to the divine right: the normal rules didn’t apply to the Targaryens because they were the Targaryens. They were the kings. They weren’t entirely human, even; they had the blood of dragons. It might not have been literal, at least if you didn’t believe that one prince (one of the Aegons?) who thought he was a dragon. Well, Daenerys (sp?) had something inhuman going on if she could survive the pyre of of her sun-and-stars with nothing much more than a buzzcut. She also nursed the dragons, which takes some serious nerve, since I assume they were born with teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/64 "2009-02-10T20:18:19Z")
> [@ArrMatey](#): > > Apparently I am too. I read ‘Joffrey’ and somehow thought ‘Jamie’. Wasn’t sure where narcisim came in there… Although there can be arguments for it as their relationship is often looked at (by them) as being ‘halves of a whole’. And while we’re at spelling, it’s Arya not Anya.😛 Regarding Cersei, I don’t think you can ignore the role of Robert who appears to have been an uncaring and at times brutal husband. I think Cersei is not unlike Catelyn and had she married a decent man she would have turned out very differently. In GOT there is a passage where Eddard wonders what Catelyn would have done if she were in the same position as Cersei. For the reasons mentioned above she has every reason to be paranoid. And of course speaking of Catelyn she literally becomes a monster after she has lost her loved ones and her own life. That further deepens the similarity between her and Cersei IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/65 "2009-02-10T20:22:56Z")
Speaking of which, I have a very bad feeling about the whole Zombie Cat thing. It feels really off, and I’m worried it’s going to develope into a truely dreaful subplot. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/66 "2009-02-10T20:33:45Z")
Yeah on the whole I didn’t like it either. For one thing I like dead characters to stay dead. In fact a lot the magic stuff has been sub-par so far IMO. Mellisandre is a weak character and seems like someone lifted from a second-rate sword and sorcery tale. I am not too excited about the Others either. IIRC at one point Martin considered making SOIAF a historical novel without fantasy and I sometimes wonder if that wouldn’t been better. Of course some of the fantasy is pretty cool especially the dragons and the Faceless Men. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/67 "2009-02-10T20:50:35Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Speaking of which, I have a very bad feeling about the whole Zombie Cat thing. It feels really off, and I’m worried it’s going to develope into a truely dreaful subplot. No memory at all of it. Can you…oh hell. By Cat you meant Catelyn, didn’t you? I thought maybe we were talking about Ser Pounce or something. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/68 "2009-02-10T21:13:31Z")
Your worse fear confirmed, **Merijeek**. Did you not read that far in the series yet? If so, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/69 "2009-02-10T23:41:11Z")
I’d disagree with wanting to abjure (no pun intended) the magic. I rather -like- that magic is there as a ‘minor’ force. I suspect it will grow, but it will come down to the actions of people in a believable way. I don’t suspect huge armies of wizards and magic blades. I expect a few shadow assassins (like we’ve seen before), maybe a flaming sword or two, and some magical creatures (dragons, certainly… Although wouldn’t it be a cool twist if none of them actually survived to see the big battles?), but in the end it’ll be what human beings decide to do, and the allies they choose to make. That’s what I’d like to see. It also serves to make the magic… Well… Magical. Not just a contrivance or a mechanic. When every court has a wizard, wizards don’t mean as much. When there’s a tiny handful of people out there who can summon horrid things and make fire appear, that’s more impressive magic to me. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/70 "2009-02-10T23:50:28Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > Yeah on the whole I didn’t like it either. For one thing I like dead characters to stay dead. It seems as though raising the dead is a key element in Martin’s world - both Ice (the wights) and Fire are capable of it, which seems to indicate how similar the two sides are. ---
**Author:** ![Yogurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/f0a364/32.png) [@Yogurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yogurt)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/71 "2009-02-13T00:05:05Z")
Predictions on the release of Dance with Dragons? 2009 (extremely ambitious) 2010 2011 2020 ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/72 "2009-02-13T00:24:13Z")
^ I’ve already started a ADWD pool on another forum. What say we do one here? ---
**Author:** ![Kylede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kylede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kylede)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/73 "2009-02-13T06:27:00Z")
> [@Yogurt](#): > > Predictions on the release of Dance with Dragons? > > 2009 (extremely ambitious) > > 2010 > > 2011 > > 2020 Uh, the relase date was set last week 10/29/2009 Go to amazon, you can preorder it already ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/74 "2009-02-13T06:36:52Z")
> [@Kylede](#): > > Uh, the relase date was set last week > 10/29/2009 > Go to amazon, you can preorder it already The problem is, this isn’t the first time the release date for this book has been set. People have become justifably sceptical when it comes to release dates for books in this series. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/75 "2009-02-13T13:07:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The problem is, this isn’t the first time the release date for this book has been set. People have become justifably sceptical when it comes to release dates for books in this series. Particularly when the Ice and Fire Update section of Martin’s [own website](http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html) says: > [@George RR Martin](#): > > I probably won’t update this page again for quite a long while, so let me close by saying once again that when A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is finished, I will post that news here. The moment I finish the book, I will log on and make the announcement. You guys will be the third ones to know, right after Parris and my publishers. That page is dated 1/1/2008. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/76 "2009-02-13T13:13:34Z")
And you’ve been able to preorder from Amazon for over a year now, **Captain Amazing** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/77 "2009-02-13T14:50:06Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > ^ I’ve already started a ADWD pool on another forum. What say we do one here? I’m in. I’d say… late 2010. Should I pick a month, too? ---
**Author:** ![schnuckiputzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@schnuckiputzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schnuckiputzi)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/78 "2009-02-13T15:05:35Z")
I’ve had mine on pre-order for months, and Amazon keeps sending me periodically emails about “the date has been changed. Do you still want this book?” YES, durn it! ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/79 "2009-02-13T15:27:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I’m in. I’d say… late 2010. Should I pick a month, too? Yep. Year and month. I’m going for October, 2009. I’m optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912/80 "2009-02-13T15:29:27Z")
Put me down for May 2010 then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-song-of-ice-and-fire-warning-some-spoilers-unboxed/484912.md?page=5)