# A straight pragmatic atheist cynic's opinion on gay marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 10, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538 "2004-03-10T20:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2004, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/61 "2004-03-18T18:38:02Z")
> [@Iscariot](#): > > Tough to argue with these numbers. > HIV incidence among young homosexuals, National Center for Health Statistics. > [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a4.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5021a4.htm) > Men who have sex with men on the decline, but remain much higher risk, National Center for Health Statistics > [http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/hivprevalence/selected.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/pubs/hivprevalence/selected.htm) > The same study indicates that heterosexuals who do not engage in IV drug use are by _far_ the least at risk portion of the population. > Number one spreader of HIV remains homosexual sex, National Center for Health Statistics. > [http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1402/table17.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hasr1402/table17.htm) > > Regards. Agreed, and my opinion on this matter has duly been altered. My opinion on the transmission of HIV at least; I’m still pro-gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/62 "2004-03-19T01:56:37Z")
> [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > Agreed, and my opinion on this matter has duly been altered. My opinion on the transmission of HIV at least; Glad to hear it. As an aside, it’s interesting how many people share the views you held previously. The product, I’m sure, of a nearly two decade long media campaign with such catchy slogans as “AIDS Doesn’t Discriminate,” while carrying powerful stories about AIDS in middle America and the imminent threat of an epidemic that was due to arrive any day. The epidemic never came to middle America, I think it’s time to admit that it’s probably not going to. Just goes to show that you can’t always trust the mainstream media, because they’re patently incorrect. AIDS does discriminate. It always has. It’s homophobic, racist and sexist, though I’d venture that, per capita, it hates IV drug users most of all. Maybe someone should start a new slogan: “AIDS in Middle America: The Epidemic that Never Was.” But I suppose that’s another topic, for another thread. > [@](#): > > I’m still pro-gay marriage. The argument from HIV isn’t much of an argument at all. I’m surprised it swings anyone’s decision, because it doesn’t hold up to even the most cursory analysis. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![vasyachkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c5a1d2/32.png) [@vasyachkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vasyachkin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/63 "2004-03-19T13:23:19Z")
you either A - think everybody is free to live life they way they want, and you are happy for them as long as they’re happy and they dont hurt you. or B - you think everybody should live their life the way you want to live your life, else you despise them. most people are _B_ imho. that is because its hard to maintain a system of beliefs and at the same time understand that some _other_ system of beliefs which is different from yours is not any lesser. in effect you can’t feel good about yourself without hating somebody else who is different. you want to be proud of being straight, white or male. why do you want that - cuz pride feels good. now how can you be proud of that if you accept that its ok to be gay or a woman or black ? you can’t. people have a basic NEED to demonize everything which is different, there is no point in trying to reason rationally about it 🙂 * * * of course you CAN create a system of values that is not built on hate. but how will you ever know that you need to do that ? nobody teaches this to kids. nobody taught me this, not parents not teachers. in fact i havent ever seen any text that would explain how you can build a system of values that allows you to be happy without hating people around you. the question is just ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Abel\_s\_Brother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Abel\_s\_Brother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abel_s_Brother)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/64 "2004-03-19T18:30:17Z")
> [@vasyachkin](#): > > you either > > A - think everybody is free to live life they way they want, and you are happy for them as long as they’re happy and they dont hurt you. > > or > > B - you think everybody should live their life the way you want to live your life, else you despise them. Broad seperations of human beings should be limited to inherently binary descriptions. You are either blue or not blue. You are either quadraplegic, or you are not quadraplegic. Anything less clear cut, such as opinions on yourself and your life and how other people live their lives, is unlikely to work as a dichotomy. > [@vasyachkin](#): > > in effect you can’t feel good about yourself without hating somebody else who is different. you want to be proud of being straight, white or male. why do you want that - cuz pride feels good. now how can you be proud of that if you accept that its ok to be gay or a woman or black ? you can’t. I am proud of being straight, white, male, Irish, well-educated, accomplished in my field, young, tall and strong. I do not hate anyone for not sharing any of those qualities with me (though I highly recommend everyone try being tall. It’s great!) Self-Pride does not equal hatred for others. However, all too often it does. The remainder of your point is quite valuable. I, for one, think that philosophy should be taught at a much younger age, and mandatory right alongside english and math. Everyone in the world should learn at least the basics of understanding your own belief structure. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/65 "2004-03-19T19:20:41Z")
> [@Iscariot](#): > > The product, I’m sure, of a nearly two decade long media campaign with such catchy slogans as “AIDS Doesn’t Discriminate,” while carrying powerful stories about AIDS in middle America and the imminent threat of an epidemic that was due to arrive any day. The epidemic never came to middle America, I think it’s time to admit that it’s probably not going to. Makes you wonder if maybe, just maybe, all the warnings and education about how to avoide the disease actually helped prevent the worst predictions. Perphaps that “two decade long media campaign” was effective. Makes you wonder what might have happened if the research and education had begun earlier at the beginning of the outbreak rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/66 "2004-03-20T01:59:39Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Makes you wonder if maybe, just maybe, all the warnings and education about how to avoide the disease actually helped prevent the worst predictions. Perphaps that “two decade long media campaign” was effective. Except then you have to wonder why it still strikes homosexuals and minorities with nearly the same fervor it did at the outset. Middle America is the only group that watches CBS? And I wasn’t speaking so much of the education end of it. I’m speaking of exactly what I said. The touching shot of the blonde and blue-eyed HIV positive family living in suburbia, followed up with ominous warnings usually accompanied by fictitious statistics about how much AIDS has spread. It hasn’t. It never did. > [@](#): > > Makes you wonder what might have happened if the research and education had begun earlier at the beginning of the outbreak rather than later. Why? There is no “outbreak,” in any meaningful sense of the term. The same groups that were effected at the beginning remain the groups most effected now. It was “education” about a threat that never existed. You seem to be missing the point. AIDS hasn’t been slowed down. It’s not as though we’ve had some incredible decline in HIV cases. It’s not that the spread of HIV has been slowed because of our effective education, it’s more like HIV wasn’t moving very fast to begin with. Regards. ---
**Author:** ![Iscariot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ac91a4/32.png) [@Iscariot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iscariot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/67 "2004-03-20T02:08:42Z")
> [@Abel's Brother](#): > > I, for one, think that philosophy should be taught at a much younger age, and mandatory right alongside english and math. Everyone in the world should learn at least the basics of understanding your own belief structure. "La philosophie triomphe aisément des maux passés et des maux à venir. Mais les maux présents triomphent d’elle. (Philosophy easily triumphs over past evils and future evils; but present evils triumph over it.)-La Rochefoucauld, Maxim 22. Regards ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/68 "2004-03-20T02:50:29Z")
The only thing that I’ve taken from the current gay marriage debate, as a straight male deist, is that you’re all wrong. The gov’t SHOULDN’T care who you love or live with or where you stick this or that as long as who you love or live with or where you stick this or that doesn’t deny someone their ability to love or live with or stick this or that wherever. The problem is that, right now, a man-woman marrriage carries with it additional BENEFITS and CONSIDERATION that are not afforded to ALL citizens. That to me is the real crime. Either give every one the same BENEFITS and CONSIDERATION or give none. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2004, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538/69 "2004-03-20T08:48:40Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > I am also a straight pragmatic atheist cynic. Or at least hope so. As such, my opinion does not differ. > The argument that I have heard, however, that gay marriage **does** actually harm others runs as follows: > > 1. HIV is most often spread by gay people > 2. Allowing gay people to marry advances the idea that homosexualism is OK > 3. As such, our youth are more likely to be willing to experiment with homosexuality > 4. Thereby, by allowing gays to marry, we are raising the level of risk for our young to catch HIV Of course, the flaws in this “logic” are manifold. 1. HIV is most often spread by men, period. So gay men spread it more than straight men, given the increase in the percentage of gay sex partners who are male. But even straight men spread it far and away more than lesbian women, who have an infection rate that is negligible. So what sense is there in banning gay marriage for “public health” reasons? 2. Gay people will be gay people, and I don’t see the fact that my boyfriend and I wear wedding bands changing a lot of hearts and minds regarding the morality of our relationship. Generational displacement has already eradicated the stigma of homosexuality in much of the younger strata of America – its simply too late to put that genie back in the closet. 3. While the increase in acceptance of homosexuals among younger Americans has certainly increased the number of out homosexuals, I’ve seen nothing to indicate that it’s increased the level of “experimentation,” to say nothing of the share of the population that is gay. 4. Built on a foundation of nonsense, proposition 4 falls flat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-straight-pragmatic-atheist-cynics-opinion-on-gay-marriage/233538.md?page=3)