# A sullied Rose and the thorn that crowns baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476 "2002-12-13T09:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/1 "2002-12-13T09:23:55Z")
This might belong in the thread I’ve linked to below but, considering the annoyance I felt while writing it, I thought it would be best to put it here in the pit. * * * Pete Rose, for reasons already stated and restated most clearly and completely by **zev\_steinhardt** and **RickJay** [in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149602&perpage=50&pagenumber=1), should never again be allowed _any_ involvement with Organized Baseball in _any_ capacity. He screwed himself with a wire brush, folks. Let him scream. Let him try and stop the bleeding, if he can. But don’t let him back in to stain the seats. Rose was declared permanently ineligible. For those of you who have trouble with words of more than two syllables, permanently ineligible means never. Not tomorrow, not next week. And certainly not at Bud Selig’s discretion (now there’s an oxymoronic phrase). If Selig allows Rose back in, he will have done more harm to baseball than Rose himself has done. And more than was done by all the members of the Black Sox scandal. If Selig does this, he himself should be subject to banishment. Immediately. Why? Because allowing Rose back will send a message that gambling on ball games, even games in which your team is involved, ain’t such a bad thing. And that never turns out to consist of a lesser amount of time than many baseball careers. To those of you who think that Rose should be allowed back to bleed his particular selfish and self-inflicted wounds all over baseball, I can only say that you do not understand the danger posed to the integrity of the game by any member – not just players – but _any_ member of Organized Baseball who gambles on baseball games. The mere suggestion that someone might have exerted undue influence over any game or any portion of a game shakes the entire tree of a season. The reverberations of such an act call into question the validity of the very standings. It. Is. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/2 "2002-12-13T09:26:10Z")
It. Is. Such. Old. News. I bet my kids wouldn’t even recognize the name, let alone have him be a poor role model for them. But one vote here for leaving him out, since bringing him back will mean that we’ll have to have it rehashed all over again, and it was dreary enough the first time around. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/3 "2002-12-13T12:39:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Because allowing Rose back will send a message that gambling on ball games, even games in which your team is involved, ain’t such a bad thing. The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Yeah right. What an exageration. Rose gets let back in and suddenly dozens of players say to themselves: “heh, you know what, I think I’ll bet on baseball and you now why?..because I’ll probably only get a permanent suspension that will be lifted after 14 years…yeah, that’s what I’ll do…I’ll piss away my 2 year/13.5 million contract and future earnings potential because I know I’ll get back in 14 years from now because Pete did” Is that what you are trying to feed us? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/4 "2002-12-13T12:46:33Z")
Given the usurpation of baseball by American football as the national pasttime in the US, and the lack of popularity of it (especially as the millionaire ballplayers once again tried to hold the “stike hammer” over everyone’s heads), I don’t think many people will care. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/5 "2002-12-13T13:13:28Z")
As reported this morning on ESPN: Dowd: “I probably shouldn’t have said it”. …oh…and “lack of popularity”…wtf kind of retarded comment is that Anthracite?.. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/6 "2002-12-13T13:43:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*…oh…and “lack of popularity”…wtf kind of retarded comment is that Anthracite?.. \*\* I don’t know how old you are, sunshine, but Baseball isn’t what it was when I was growing up. Not by a long shot. Not in terms of popularity amongst kids outside of school, kids in school, and viewership period. Absolute numbers increase, but relative numbers do not. Even in the last decade in my office, it is clear that a sea-change has occured, with people crazy about Football, but only a few die-hard fans following Baseball. It certainly seems like it is not the hyper-popular sport it once was, and having heard what fans and detractors both said for months on end during the strike and threatened strike, I think it’s clear to me that baseball is very much on that slow spiral downward in popularity that claimed Squash, Badminton, Field Hockey, and Australian Dick Wrestling (at least in the Pro leagues; I understand there’s quite a large amateur league in the sport). Of course, like most things in the Pit, it’s the opinion of he writer making the statement. But thanks for the “retarded comment” comment. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/7 "2002-12-13T14:11:19Z")
Anthracite, I think they call it Australian Rules Dick. Fatwater Fewl, a guy in prison sentenced to life without parole can still be set free at the Governor’s discretion. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/8 "2002-12-13T14:37:52Z")
Baseball’s not going anywhere, **Anthracite**. Though eclipsed in popularity by football in the last few decades, it remains hugely popular. And don’t forget its large international popularity, which dwarfs that of America’s other sports export (basketball) in most of the places where it is played. The internationalization of the game is actually one of its great strengths. As to the OP, screw Pete Rose. As an old friend of mine used to say, he shit his own nest. **Krispy Original** , remind me again why they let your sorry ass back onto the boards? ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/9 "2002-12-13T14:54:27Z")
**Anthracite** is correct, and the reason football has taken over is mostly because of money. People who follow football daily (like me) are well aware that the balance of income made by the NFL is split _far_ more eqitably among teams than in almost any other team sport. This means that, while there are still some differences in available funds to buy superstars, they are much less than in other sports. Not only that, but football has simply been more progressive in how it handles business, in a whole host of ways. It was the first major sport to institute a salary cap, although it was well behind baseball in instituting free agency. But both innovations simply made the league stronger, by heading off labor problems before they affected the game’s public image and by even further democratizing the distribution of talent. The end result is that pro football is consistently the most competitive sport these days, with 90% of the games on “any given Sunday” up for grabs by either team. Plus, lets be honest: in this day in age, a sports success is built on how it comes across on television, since so few people can actually go watch a game in person anymore. (ALL the pro leagues are overcharging for tickets, compared to what they used to cost, plus cutting down on “blue collar” seating favor of luxury boxes.) And on television, football is simply more compelling. The NFL is also the beneficiary yearly of the massive popularity of college football, something baseball has no equivalent to (although basketball does). College baseball games aren’t even televised in most places. But I guarantee when the Tennessee Titans and Eddie George are playing an Ohio team, half the sets in Columbus are tuned in, with viewers remembering him running for the Heisman when he played for Ohio State. Add it all together, and the NFL has the strengths of every major pro sport, but none of their weaknesses. End of massive hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/10 "2002-12-13T15:06:52Z")
As for Pete Rose getting back in, no way in hell should he be reinstated. Go back and read news stories from the time; the guy was clearly a compulsive gambler, who knew his behavior was wrong (and violated league rules prominently posted in his own clubhouse) and did everything he could to try to hide it. And who is to say he’s changed? The man has serious character deficits, of a type that can’t be overlooked. We’re not talking about unpaid parking tickets or marital infidelity here; when he bet on baseball he risked screwing his team, fans, the league, just about everyone, including himself. What if word had got out in the criminal underworld or to Vegas bookies that Pete Rose - _Pete Rose_ - was laying money on games? Instantly the outcome of any game involved would be suspect. The sport simply couldn’t afford a credibility disaster of that magnitude then, and it _really_ can’t now. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/11 "2002-12-13T15:25:41Z")
Um, am I the only one who remembers how we basically just spent the entire month of August hearing nothing but “Baseball is dying, baseball is dying”? The strike threat? Rich owners, rich players, the poor ignored American baseball fan lost and abandoned in the middle? Anybody else remember that? I’m with Anthracite. Baseball is no longer “in”, specially with teens, who are supposed to be Baseball–The Next Generation. Bonzo will sit there and watch _football_, but he won’t watch baseball. “It’s boring,” quoth he. And this from someone who watches golf. And infomercials. And BTW, he prefers college football to the NFL. The first time he was watching some college game, as I walked through the living room, he told me excitedly, “Wow, Mom, this game is really moving along! It’s so different! They just had, like, three plays in the last five minutes, they don’t keep stopping for stuff…” ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/12 "2002-12-13T17:37:45Z")
\*\* Krispy Original\*\*, gambling on baseball games by people who are in position to influence the outcome of those games calls into question the validity of the standings and the statistical record of every player on the field during those games. It strikes a blow directly at what makes baseball such a great game – that over the course of a season the best team wins the most games. How is this so hard to understand? **Duck Duck Goose** , it ain’t popularity or the image of baseball that I’m upset about. It has shown itself to be capable of surviving almost anything. But when it threatens to invalidate its own context, I get a little upset. **Enderw24** , baseball ain’t a democracy or the justice system. And the Commissioner of baseball has shown himself to be completely lacking in discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/13 "2002-12-13T20:30:22Z")
You’re absolutely right. Baseball isn’t a democracy. It’s a business. The business will do what it needs to to make a profit. Explain to me again why Bud Selig can’t revoke an irrvokable ban. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/14 "2002-12-13T22:32:55Z")
When did I say Selig can’t? I expressed my strongly held opinion that he shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/15 "2002-12-14T00:34:12Z")
From what I’ve read, Selig is in no way just going to reinstate Rose **UNLESS** Rose offers up an apology and admits that yes, eh did bet on baseball while playing for and managing the Reds and that it was a horrible thing to do and that he’s sorry that he has hurt the game. Since I think Rose’s ego is so massive, he will never do this. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/16 "2002-12-14T01:41:35Z")
Baseball has integrity? Say it ain’t so, Joe! Let him back in. It’s just a game. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/17 "2002-12-14T02:30:37Z")
I suppose you could believe football was more popular than baseball if you also believed the United States was the entire universe. If you don’t happen to believe the latter, the former is obviously false. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/18 "2002-12-14T04:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > It strikes a blow directly at what makes baseball such a great game – that over the course of a season the best team wins the most games. How is this so hard to understand? Nah…the team that wins the most games isn’t the best team. The team that wins the World Series is the best team. …and I hardly think I need a lesson in baseball from you Fewl. There was and is no impact on the game as a result of the alleged Rose bets. Zip. Nada. None. Pete’s behavior 14 years ago did not affect the outcome of the 02 World Series. Please quite being a drama queen. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/19 "2002-12-14T06:31:59Z")
Whether or not you need any kind of lesson from me is immaterial, **Krispy** , since your learning curve would seem to have about the same amount of slope as the surface of my desk. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/20 "2002-12-14T06:51:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*Absolute numbers increase, but relative numbers do not. Even in the last decade in my office, it is clear that a sea-change has occured, with people crazy about Football, but only a few die-hard fans following Baseball. \*\* I don’t think I’ve ever said this to someone before. I think you’re keen. That is all. Marc [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476.md?page=2)