# A sullied Rose and the thorn that crowns baseball **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 13, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476 "2002-12-13T09:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/21 "2002-12-14T18:27:55Z")
Yes, the statement that “Only a few die hard fans follow baseball” is one of the most demonstrably false statements I’ve read on this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/22 "2002-12-14T20:56:49Z")
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The HOF is about on field performance. I don’t care if Rose bet on his team to lose and then started a guy he pulled out of the stands as pitcher. He deserves to be in the HOF for what he did on the field. Nothing else matters. Period. ( Shoeless Joe should not be banned either. If his numbers support it, let him in ) Besides, Baseball going on about “The integrity of the game” is a sick joke with Captain Bud in charge. Baseball has none. “We need to contract the Twins” nevermind that they have history and a fanbase, and the fact that they are the closest team to your Brewers and compete for fans has nothing to do with it Mr. Selig? Pu-lease. Tell me another one. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/23 "2002-12-14T21:36:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The NFL is also the beneficiary yearly of the massive popularity of college football, something baseball has no equivalent to (although basketball does). College baseball games aren’t even televised in most places. Jeesh. Ever hear of _Minor League Baseball_? Guess not. Get this: There’s a little Class A team just a few miles up the road from me. They call themselves the Dayton Dragons. They drew 571,000 through the gates in the 2002 season. One of their competitors, the The Kane County Cougars brought in a shade more than 510,000 folks. Baseball is not dead. Baseball isn’t suffering from a “lack of popularity”. Baseball is not at a “disadvantage” to football or basketball. Hey, I am also a fan of the NFL and of college basketball, but that isn’t to the exclusion of MLB. It is possible to like all three sports and to follow all three sports. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/24 "2002-12-14T21:52:20Z")
Minor league baseball attendance in 2002 was 39,561,442…up more than 750,000 from 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/25 "2002-12-14T23:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Flymaster \* > \*\*Yes, the statement that “Only a few die hard fans follow baseball” is one of the most demonstrably false statements I’ve read on this message board. \*\* If you deliberately quote me out of context like you just did, then yes, it is false. If you had actually read and comprehended what I said, > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > **Even in the last decade in my office,** it is clear that a sea-change has occured, with people crazy about Football, but only a few die-hard fans following Baseball. (emphasis added for those who just don’t get it) …you would see that you quoted me out of context. Define “demonstrably false” for me again… :rolleyes: So what’s it going to be now? You just let me know… ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/26 "2002-12-14T23:53:54Z")
Well…ok…I guess the preferences of your office somehow accurately equates to the preferences of sports fans in general…maybe that explains baseball’s “lack of popularity”. I guess you are right…nobody cares about baseball. Retard. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/27 "2002-12-15T00:04:11Z")
Why not let him into the HoF but maintain his ban from baseball? His achievements playing the game merit his inclusion in any list of all time great players. Put his achievements on show, right next to the plaque that describes how he threw away any ability to take part in baseball for the rest of his life because he broke the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/28 "2002-12-15T00:11:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*Well…ok…I guess the preferences of your office somehow accurately equates to the preferences of sports fans in general…maybe that explains baseball’s “lack of popularity”. > > I guess you are right…nobody cares about baseball.\*\* My whole point earlier in response to your first “retard” post was to explain why, IMO, it seemed that there was a “lack of popularity”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > **Retard.** And given that my response to you was polite, and you are continuing to throw pretty childish insults my way (I haven’t been called a “retard” since grade school), I guess I’d like to know what the deal is. Anyone else understand? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/29 "2002-12-15T00:57:06Z")
Hey…you want to jump into a thread in the **Pit]** that exists to slam Pete Rose…and then your contribution is to say “yah football!” and “nobody cares about baseball anyway”?.. …and now you want to cry when _you_ are attacked? Ok…Ok…I’m sorry Anthracite. Feel free to pop into Pit threads and make inane comments at will. I shouldn’t have called you that nasty name. I just don’t know what came over me. I’ll try very hard to never do it again. \*note to self - no insults in the Pit ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/30 "2002-12-15T01:03:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > And given that my response to you was polite, and you are continuing to throw pretty childish insults my way (I haven’t been called a “retard” since grade school), I guess I’d like to know what the deal is. Anyone else understand? 😕 I think **Krispy Original** is just upset that baseball’s popularity is declining and soccer’s is increasing. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/31 "2002-12-15T01:45:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*If you deliberately quote me out of context like you just did, then yes, it is false. \*\* That’s deliberately out of context? You were using an example, to show what you felt was a national trend. Clearly, you were implying that your office extrapolates to the rest of the US. I quoted what it was clearly your goal to state. If I’ve offended you, fine, and I apolgize. But to claim that not “many people will care” about a baseball related issue, because it’s such a marginalized sport, is just stupid. It’s been front page (well, as much as there are pages) news on SportsCenter, and all sorts of sports websites, and sports pages around the nation. But, yeah, I guess you’re right. Not many people will care. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/32 "2002-12-15T01:51:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*Hey…you want to jump into a thread in the **Pit]** that exists to slam Pete Rose…and then your contribution is to say “yah football!” and “nobody cares about baseball anyway”?.. > …and now you want to cry when you are attacked? > > Ok…Ok…I’m sorry Anthracite. Feel free to pop into Pit threads and make inane comments at will. I shouldn’t have called you that nasty name. I just don’t know what came over me. I’ll try very hard to never do it again. \*\* No, this thread exists because because the OP thinks it’s actually a big deal whether Rose gets let back in or not. **Anth** said that fewer and fewer people think it is a big deal. You may disagree with that for whatever reason, but it is hardly inane. Or retarded. ---
**Author:** ![WSLer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a6a055/32.png) [@WSLer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WSLer)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/33 "2002-12-15T02:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*…and I hardly think I need a lesson in baseball from you Fewl. There was and is no impact on the game as a result of the alleged Rose bets. Zip. Nada. None. > > Pete’s behavior 14 years ago did not affect the outcome of the 02 World Series. Please quite being a drama queen. \*\* Wow, that is quite possibly the single most incoherent post that looks like it’s related to the topic at hand, but actually bears no resemblence not just to the thread topic, but to ANY topic on the entire message board. _Golf clap_ I would like certification on how you know that Rose’s betting on MLB games including Reds games had _no impact on the game as a result of the alleged Rose bets._ I especially love your complete non-sequeter about Rose’s behavior not affecting the outcome of the '02 World Series. How did you manage to pull \*\*that \*\* little assnugget of utterly pointless/meaningless and mindless non-information out of your ass? :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally :wally ---
**Author:** ![JonScribe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3be4f8/32.png) [@JonScribe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonScribe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/34 "2002-12-15T02:58:30Z")
The reason Rose and gambling still have a bearing on baseball (and why baseball came down so hard on him in the first place) is because of what happened decades before Pete could even hold a bat. The Black Sox scandal had the potential for killing baseball, and the fear was that Rose had allowed that danger to surface again. Whether it was an overreaction or not, baseball didn’t want to risk alienating fans. (And, yeah, baseball does plenty to piss off fans, but why look for another avenue?) Rose goes. Would putting him in the Hall of Fame or allowing him to manage (or sell peanuts in the stands) alienate most fans, or cause them to doubt the outcome of games? I don’t know. But why risk it? Shovelface has his fans willing to pay him to autograph everything from balls to tits. What more does he need? What more does he deserve? (And on the side argument of baseball’s popularity: Baseball is important to me, to my wife and to my kids. And that’s all that matters to me.) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/35 "2002-12-15T04:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*Hey…you want to jump into a thread in the **Pit]** that exists to slam Pete Rose…and then your contribution is to say “yah football!” and “nobody cares about baseball anyway”?.. > > …and now you want to cry when _you_ are attacked? > > Ok…Ok…I’m sorry Anthracite. Feel free to pop into Pit threads and make inane comments at will. I shouldn’t have called you that nasty name. I just don’t know what came over me. I’ll try very hard to never do it again. > \*note to self - no insults in the Pit \*\* 1. If you are trying to misattribute quotes to me, you’re going to be banned again. 2. Who’s crying? I’m just wondering why you are acting like such a giant inflatable assclown. 3. You’re _admitting_ to attacking me? That really was not wise. 4. Learn the difference between argument and _ad hominem_. Buy a book if you need to. Maybe they have a _Rhetoric Rabbit_ program you can buy… 5. Good luck with all that. You either need serious psychological help, or you need to get a Strap-on Porta-Spine[sup]TM[/sup] and admit why you’re coming after me like you are, instead of acting like a twelve year old bully on a playground. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/36 "2002-12-15T04:32:25Z")
Count me as someone who cares. But my reasons are odd–it’s not that I care about baseball, but that Bart Giamatti was sort of a hero of mine and I trust his judgment in this matter. I’d hate to see his decision–which he obviously felt strongly about–be overturned. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/37 "2002-12-15T04:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Flymaster \* > \*\*That’s deliberately out of context? You were using an example, to show what you felt was a national trend. Clearly, you were implying that your office extrapolates to the rest of the US. I quoted what it was clearly your goal to state. > > If I’ve offended you, fine, and I apolgize. But to claim that not “many people will care” about a baseball related issue, because it’s such a marginalized sport, is just stupid. It’s been front page (well, as much as there are pages) news on SportsCenter, and all sorts of sports websites, and sports pages around the nation. But, yeah, I guess you’re right. Not many people will care. \*\* Try not to be offended so much by what I’m saying and try to respond to my observations. Re-read my post. When I grew up, all the boys played baseball. I watched them play in the neighborhood, watched them brag about their prowess, say them spend untold $$$ on baseball cards and tickets to games. Little League absolutely ruled the Summer. I didn’t know a single kid who was in a football league. When I started work about a decade ago, there were office pools every season on baseball teams, people with banners on their cubicles, people talking every single morning about one game or another the previous night. Large organized affairs of men going out to the park. Clients always asked for Royals tickets as a perk for coming to KC. Now…it seems it’s all gone. Not a single person at work has a kid in Little League. But they are all in soccer and football. There are no more baseball pools, but there are football pools. There are no organized events to baseball games, there are to football games. Clients _only_ ask for Chiefs tickets, even when the Chiefs suck. I haven’t heard a Royals ticket request since Clinton’s first term. And don’t think that I don’t like baseball. I like baseball about exactly as much as I do football or soccer. Which means - it’s OK. It’s nothing personal. What I tried to put forward is that I have a definite strong impression, backed up by my experiences and interpersonal relations, that baseball is defintely not that popular anymore. Not “#1” popular, and maybe not #2. In terms of “popularity” amongst the people I interact with, it is #5, behind football, college basketball, NASCAR, and soccer. Don’t take my opinion of baseball seeming to be slipping in popularity personally, like Mr. Anger Control Issue in here seems to. Perhaps instead you could supply me with attendence figures and viewership figures that show a percent increase over the last 10 years, and thus shoot down all my arguments/opinions? I’d be happy to be educated - honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Cortana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Cortana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cortana)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/38 "2002-12-15T04:48:22Z")
I suppose I should preface this post with a little disclaimer: Pete Rose is my best friend’s uncle, and I’ve met the guy and his family more than once. That said… I don’t think anyone’s ever accused Rose of betting AGAINST the Reds, while he was managing them. As far as I know, the numbers were something like 400-some odd bets in total, 57 or so on the reds to win. If he’d ever placed a bet on his team to lose, I’d be much more supportive of the ban staying in place ad infinitum. I remember when the news came out about all this, and it was a big topic back then in SW Ohio where I lived and grew up. Pretty much everyone there is a Reds fan, and it wasn’t too long past their glory days of really being good. Even then, without 14 years to put it behind people, there were a lot of fans who were supporting Rose even then, and thought the lifetime suspension was out of line. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/39 "2002-12-15T04:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dr. Lao \* > \*\*No, this thread exists because because the OP thinks it’s actually a big deal whether Rose gets let back in or not. **Anth** said that fewer and fewer people think it is a big deal. You may disagree with that for whatever reason, but it is hardly inane. Or retarded. \*\* Yep. And **Krispy** , if you’d just take off your Rose-coloured glasses for a few minutes you might realize that the man made some serious mistakes and so has baseball. One of his was to become so deeply involved with gambling that it caused problems for him. One of baseball’s was to not publish a full report of the investigation of Pete Rose at the time the scandal occurred. And baseball has lost popularity. Not because of Rose – in the final analysis he just ain’t that important – but because of the ongoing financial strife between two sides … strife, when _one_ member of the poorest side might make more money in a year than the average fan would make in 20 years. And because North America’s cultural appetites have gown restless and tend towards flash and constant action. We seem afraid of silence, of lulls, of spaces between entertainments where our own thoughts might enter. We are estranged from the slow, openended rhythms of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2002, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476/40 "2002-12-15T05:45:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I especially love your complete non-sequeter about Rose’s behavior not affecting the outcome of the '02 World Series. How did you manage to pull \*\*that \*\* little assnugget of utterly pointless/meaningless and mindless non-information out of your ass? But it’s true! If stupid Pete Rose hadn’t interfered, the Giants would have won, right? Fate had intended them to win, goddamn Pete Rose for getting in the way by…betting on something! God, I hate that Pete Rose and his Giants-World-Series-Spoiling self. :: kicks the Angels :: I have no opinion on whether Pete Rose should be reinstated. Unless he somehow managed to make the Angels win the World Series. In which case he should be banned from baseball and other holy institutions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sullied-rose-and-the-thorn-that-crowns-baseball/142476.md?page=3)