# A Sympathy Card for Saddam **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268 "2003-07-22T23:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/181 "2003-07-25T21:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kellibelli \* > I have never seen an apology accepted so poorly, grats! And I’ve rarely seen them so poorly made. **Dread Cthulu** ’s is one that comes to mind. Apologies with pissy little backhands in them don’t cut the mustard, **kellibelli**. I did my best to accept **jarbabyj** ’s short and seemingly sincere apology. She then felt compelled to come back in and post another one with a snarky little personal swipe in it. That sort of shit doesn’t get a pass from me. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/182 "2003-07-26T00:01:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*[ It’s quite clear that you have problems with my online persona, there’s some people who do as well. Then again, there’s another **29,000 members** (or more) here who do not. > > Here’s a suggestion; _Save your breath._ > \*\* SIZE=1]Oh my.[/SIZE] 29,000 people, all of whom have read your contributions here in sufficient depth to have form an opinion? Sure you don’t want a little pie after all? Just a little sliver? I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/183 "2003-07-26T01:04:02Z")
No, **Cranky** , just 29,000 who have had the _opportunity_, that’s all. If I want some pie I’ll be happy to use one of my own recipes. As you know, I’ve got a few of them. Thanks for the offer though. Your gentle demeanor is sure a lot easier to take. You might want to check out **jar** ’s Cafe Society thread for some more perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/184 "2003-07-26T10:37:05Z")
I don’t follow your thinking, Zenster. You said to jarbabyj, “I’m going to do my best to accept your apology.” jarbabyj didn’t post anything further. Then you said: “I did my best to accept jarbabyj’s short and seemingly sincere apology. She then felt compelled to come back in and post another one with a snarky little personal swipe in it.” That just didn’t happen like you said it did. As for the topic of this thread, I guess people feel whatever they feel. But for the life of me, I cannot imagine feeling the way you do about these deaths. It’s a side of you that I have not seen. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/185 "2003-07-26T10:54:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*I have to say that I am actually sorry they were killed-I would prefer they had been captured. > > Think about the intelligence opportunities-we could have found out where Daddy Dearest is. \*\* Haven’t read the entire thread; forgive me if this is redundant. I thought the same thing at first. But from all accounts, it appears that they were determined not to be taken alive. They must have known we wanted to pick their brains. Either get their brains picked, or have them blown out. Whatever. That’s how they lived. Now, as for how Saddam must be feeling…Well, any **normal** man would grieve if both his sons were dead. But he is not normal, nor are his sons. It wouldn’t surprise me if he has already shrugged it off. Well, maybe with a touch of pride that they weren’t taken alive. Or relief that they didn’t live to be interrogated…I don’t know what a sociopath does when his kids die. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/186 "2003-07-26T11:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*I’m still not celebrating over someone’s death. I think my time would be better spent working on a world where such monsters don’t get a chance to proliferate. \*\* You wanna tell me how? Sure, it sounds great and in theory who could disagree, but how are you going to keep evil from proliferating without rooting it out physically? A stern lecture? Sent to bed without desert? Enquiring minds want to know! ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/187 "2003-07-26T12:26:08Z")
Oh for crying out loud **Weirddave**. Just because we don’t know, at this time, how to end the conditions which cause creeps like Oday and Qusay to be formed means we shouldn’t even try to work towards such a world? Is that it? I agree fully with **Tars Tarkas** ’s post. Those two deaths may very well have been necessary, but I’m not going to celebrate them, because to celebrate something as abhorrent as the death of another human being is in complete moral opposition to my view of the world I want future generations to inherit. No, I don’t know precisely how such a world might come to pass, but I’m pretty goddamned sure that dancing on graves, even the graves of people like Oday and Qusay Hussein, is not how to do it. If that somehow makes me naive in your eyes, feel free to go shove something sharp up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/188 "2003-07-26T12:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > **Those two deaths may very well have been necessary, but I’m not going to celebrate them, because to celebrate something as abhorrent as the death of another human being is in complete moral opposition to my view of the world I want future generations to inherit. No, I don’t know precisely how such a world might come to pass, but I’m pretty goddamned sure that dancing on graves, even the graves of people like Oday and Qusay Hussein, is not how to do it.** Did you condemn those who danced in the streets on 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/189 "2003-07-26T12:37:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > \*\*Oh for crying out loud **Weirddave**. Just because we don’t know, at this time, how to end the conditions which cause creeps like Oday and Qusay to be formed means we shouldn’t even try to work towards such a world? Is that it? > > I agree fully with **Tars Tarkas** ’s post. Those two deaths may very well have been necessary, but I’m not going to celebrate them, because to celebrate something as abhorrent as the death of another human being is in complete moral opposition to my view of the world I want future generations to inherit. No, I don’t know precisely how such a world might come to pass, but I’m pretty goddamned sure that dancing on graves, even the graves of people like Oday and Qusay Hussein, is not how to do it. If that somehow makes me naive in your eyes, feel free to go shove something sharp up your ass. \*\* All I asked was “how”? I take it from all of the rightious indignation that you have no idea, because I sure didn’t see any answers in there. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/190 "2003-07-26T12:45:40Z")
Why yes, I arranged a one-man tour of the Middle East and personally waved my finger in the nose of every person who danced in the street, yelling “Shame!” at each one, because I knew that was somehow a vital prerequisite to holding an opinion on whether or not celebrating the deaths of Oday and Qusay Hussein would be appropriate two years later. Didn’t you see me on CNN? Or to put it less sarcastically: no I didn’t, but I still felt it was wrong, just as I feel celebrating these deaths is wrong. I don’t have to advocate a position constantly just to hold that opinion. What a stupid question. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/191 "2003-07-26T12:53:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > **Or to put it less sarcastically: no I didn’t, but I still felt it was wrong, just as I feel celebrating these deaths is wrong.** Well good for you then. It’s just that some people who express your level of righteous indignation over this thread are some of the same types who went out of their way, post 9/11, to carry on about how we need to “understand” the terrorists, or how the attacks were America’s fault. Glad to see you’re not one of 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/192 "2003-07-26T13:05:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Weirddave_ > \*\* All I asked was “how”? I take it from all of the rightious indignation that you have no idea, because I sure didn’t see any answers in there.\*\* If I had answers, I would hope that I would be implementing them now, or at the very least sharing them. However, I do not have the answers, to this or to many other things. Which is probably why my post count is so low. I am pretty sure, however, that my inability to describe the best course of action doesn’t mean I can’t identify a bad course of action from time to time. I don’t have to know how to end world hunger to know that closing a food bank ain’t gonna help. **Tars Tarkas** suggested that working towards a future world without creeps like the Husseins would be better than celebrating their deaths. Asking him “How?” doesn’t make him wrong, even if he doesn’t know. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by milroyj_ > \*\* Well good for you then. It’s just that some people who express your level of righteous indignation over this thread are some of the same types who went out of their way, post 9/11, to carry on about how we need to “understand” the terrorists, or how the attacks were America’s fault.\*\* If you were really measuring whether or not I blamed America for the attacks by whether or not I condemned those who celebrated the attacks, then you have a very peculiar yardstick. > [@](#): > > **Glad to see you’re not one of 'em.** Well, now that I have your personal approval for my moral position I believe I’m ready to face the day. _Carpe diem_! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/193 "2003-07-26T13:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > **If I had answers, I would hope that I would be implementing them now, or at the very least sharing them. However, I do not have the answers, to this or to many other things.** Fine, neither do I, but I try and refrain from saying that a particular attempt to solve a problem is absolutely wrong unless I have an alternative to offer. It keeps me from looking like a fool and realizing down the road that the only arguement I have left is “Well, somebody should do SOMETHING, that’s all” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > I am pretty sure, however, that my inability to describe the best course of action doesn’t mean I can’t identify a bad course of action from time to time. I don’t have to know how to end world hunger to know that closing a food bank ain’t gonna help. Interesting analogy, because I would say that eliminating people who rape, torture and kill as a way of life would lessen the ammount of rape, torture and murder in the world. Please, enlighten me to how that is a bad thing. If you have indeed “identifyed a bad course of action”, elaborate how NOT getting rid of these two would be a better course of action. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Orbifold \* > **Tars Tarkas** suggested that working towards a future world without creeps like the Husseins would be better than celebrating their deaths. Asking him “How?” doesn’t make him wrong, even if he doesn’t know. No, and in my original response I clearly said: > [@](#): > > it sounds great and in theory who could disagree However, without the “how”, it becomes pointless mental masturbation. It’s pie in the sky idealism. Example: “We should feed all of the world’s hungry people” “I agree, how” “Well, the US and Canada raise enough food to feed everyone” “OK, now how do we get it to the hungry people? Who pays for it? Who ships it? What about people under regimes that won’t let the food in? Do we force it in? Who supplies and maintains the troops to do that? Who determines who gets how much food, Why…etc…” "Uh…Duh…"_drool_ Now you may criticize many or all of the agencies trying to feed the hungry worldwide, and you may have a real basis for doing so, but without an idea on how to fix the problems you’re pointing out, you’re doing nothing but building castles on the clouds, and also annoying those people who ARE grappling with the very real issues of how to feed the hungry in a practical manner. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/194 "2003-07-26T14:10:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > **Fine, neither do I, but I try and refrain from saying that a particular attempt to solve a problem is absolutely wrong unless I have an alternative to offer. It keeps me from looking like a fool and realizing down the road that the only arguement I have left is "Well, somebody should do SOMETHING, that’s all"** Who’s criticising “a particular attempt to solve a problem”? I’m criticising the celebration of the deaths of Oday and Qusay, not the fact that they were killed. As I said, their deaths may very well have been necessary. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you have indeed “identifyed a bad course of action”, elaborate how NOT getting rid of these two would be a better course of action.\*\* Again: criticizing the celebration of their deaths, not the deaths themselves. I would have thought that was obvious, but apparently not. > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, without the “how”, it becomes pointless mental masturbation. It’s pie in the sky idealism. > […] > Now you may criticize many or all of the agencies trying to feed the hungry worldwide, and you may have a real basis for doing so, but without an idea on how to fix the problems you’re pointing out, you’re doing nothing but building castles on the clouds, and also annoying those people who ARE grappling with the very real issues of how to feed the hungry in a practical manner. > \*\* My word, you’re missing the point here. Read **Tars Tarkas** ’s post again: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Tars Tarkas_ > **I’m still not celebrating over someone’s death. I think my time would be better spent working on a world where such monsters don’t get a chance to proliferate.** Note there are two alternatives presented: celebrate over someone’s death, or work on a world where such monsters don’t get a chance to proliferate. **Tars** clearly prefers the second alternative. This is not “criticizing many or all of the agencies” working to make the world a better place. It sure as hell isn’t “annoying those people who ARE grappling with the very real issues” in the world. And it goddamn well isn’t “pointless mental masturbation”. Just because the second alternative doesn’t come with an action plan and bullet points doesn’t mean grave-dancing is suddenly the right thing to do. Which was my point, as you seem to have at least recognized. But your own sudden righteous anger is rather misplaced. You rail against criticising those people working on solution to the world’s problems, but in case you haven’t noticed I’M NOT DOING THAT, and neither is **Tars Tarkas**. ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/195 "2003-07-26T14:27:49Z")
Somehow I think some of you “holier than thou” types are missing the point that “dancing on their graves” is a hyperbole. I was happy when I heard the news that these animals were put down. I didn’t get up out of my chair and start doing the jig. I was just satisfied that these two evil fucks are no longer among us. I think it was worthy of Zenster posting because the demise of these scumbags was noteworthy. I also don’t see how the way he presented it can be offensive to any rational human being. It just boggles my mind what the oversensitive types get bothered by on here, and how many oversensitive types there are on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/196 "2003-07-26T14:55:54Z")
Again, there is a big difference between not celebrating the death of someone evil, and not wanting to stop them by any and all means possible. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/197 "2003-07-26T14:58:04Z")
Wow, a lot of people posted between my opening this thread and posting to it. My above post was in response to **Weirddave** ’s post. > [@](#): > > You wanna tell me how? Sure, it sounds great and in theory who could disagree, but how are you going to keep evil from proliferating without rooting it out physically? A stern lecture? Sent to bed without desert? Enquiring minds want to know! ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/198 "2003-07-26T16:12:29Z")
Well Orbifold, you seem to be getting a bit worked up here. I’m just discussing the subject. I see what you are saying, I just don’t think the two issues are an either/or proposition. I take some satisfaction from their deaths, they were evil, evil men, AND I like to think, anyway, that I am working towards a world that dosen’t allow the proliferation of monsters. The two go very much hand in hand. The only way to prevent the proliferation of monsters is to root them out, in all but a vanishingly small number of cases ( And Charles Taylor may prove to be one of them here in the next week or so ), the only way to do that is with extreme predjudice. The reason I take pleasue/satisfaction in the deats of Uday and Qusay is BECAUSE their deaths contribute towards the goal of “Preventing the proliferation of monsters”. AFAICT, in the case of an Uday or a Qusay, killing them is the only way to further that goal. Saying “I’m still not celebrating over someone’s death. I think my time would be better spent working on a world where such monsters don’t get a chance to proliferate.” is contradictory-unless you have an alternative way to get rid of them, hence my initial querry-“how?” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/199 "2003-07-26T16:46:37Z")
Not all of us who condemned the dancing on the graves said people should understand the terrorists. On the contrary, I both condemned the grave dancing and the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/200 "2003-07-26T16:59:04Z")
by the way, the word “Understand” does not mean the same thing as “support” nor “Sympathize”. it is quite possible to want to “Understand” something while condemning it. In fact it’s probably best demonstrated by the Criminal Profilers of the FBI. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268.md?page=11)