# A Sympathy Card for Saddam **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268 "2003-07-22T23:46:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/141 "2003-07-24T17:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Uday and Qusay did atrocious things, therefore they must be something other than human. Monsters, yeah, that’s what they were. After all, no true Scotsm- I mean human - would ever do anything like what they did. No logical fallacy there, nosirree You misunderstand the “no True Scotsman” fallacy. Nobody is denying that they were humans or cliaimg they are of another species. The epithet “monster” is used to denote that the deeds of the brothers Hussein put them on a far different moral plane than the one inhabited by you and me. Well, by me, at any rate. I don’t know about you, but I’m not a rapist, nor do I have any desire to be one. I am not a murderer, nor do I wish to be one. I do not molest children, I do not shove guns into women’s vaginas. I do not make parents watch as I torture and mutilate their children. I do not execute or torture athletes for missing goals. The brothers Hussein were depraved monsters who had lost their souls years ago, if they ever possessed souls in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/142 "2003-07-24T17:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## It’s apparent that you see no difference between the torturers and their victims. > > was directed at jarbaby. My mistake. It was totally directed at **Jarbaby** to show her the inference of the quoted statement in that post. It’s immoral to feel anything other than relief and satisfaction at the deaths of Uday and Qusay. I have no desire to whip out my dick and piss on their corpses, but neither do I wish to indulge pious blather about their wasted lives and their human dimensions. They didn’t have good sides, they had not one positive attribute. They were not tragic figures who were sadly misled. They were scum who got what they deserved, period. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/143 "2003-07-24T17:25:44Z")
I guess will agree to disagree, gobear. You seem to be consistently mentioning that I ‘regret’, ‘lament’ or ‘sympathize’ with the brothers, which I’ve bolded, Capitalized and repeated forty times that I do not. They are dead, and the world will no longer suffer their tortures. The people of Iraq and indeed the world have one less thing to worry about. Does the death of Uday and Qusay cause me to raise a beer, laugh raucously, and compile witty OPs of ‘sympathy cards’ (snicker snicker) as a result? No. And I said in the original post about Schindler’s List that I AM INCREDIBLY NAIVE. All my life I’ve believed (and hoped) that even the most evil of people can be rehabilitated and start anew. You said: > [@](#): > > The brothers Hussein were depraved monsters who had lost their souls years ago, if they ever possessed souls in the first place. I agree. So why is this cause for what the OP referred to as “great pleasure”? For me, I weep whenever anyone turns into a monster when their lives could have been so much more. obviously, YMMV ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/144 "2003-07-24T17:44:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree. So why is this cause for what the OP referred to as “great pleasure”? For me, I weep whenever anyone turns into a monster when their lives could have been so much more. And again, spare your tears. These clowns weren’t tragic protagonists who fell from grace into sin, as if they were Macbeth or even Milton’s Satan. They were evil, murderous scum who even as children were bullies and torturers of animals. And after your “I weep” bit, I can’t take this > [@](#): > > You seem to be consistently mentioning that I ‘regret’, ‘lament’ or ‘sympathize’ with the brothers, which I’ve bolded, Capitalized and repeated forty times that I do not. very seriously. “Why, man, they did make love to this employment; They are not near my conscience; their defeat Does by their own insinuation grow” –Hamlet, V:ii, 57-58. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/145 "2003-07-24T17:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*You … place. \*\* I understand the “No True Scotsman” fallacy just fucking fine, thanks, and **Weirddave** was guilty of it when he said that we “reaffirm our humanity” when we classify ourselves differently from the worst examples of humanity. If I may become a Nike commercial for a second: “I am Uday Hussein” “I am Idi Amin” “I am Strom Thurmond” I may not like it, but I am. And so are you, whether you personally committed atrocities or not. I know you want to believe I’m saying we’re all on the same “moral plane” as these people (whatever the Jesus Christ _that_ means) but that’s your strawman. I’m not saying that, and neither is **jarbabyj**. I’m saying that the way I feel most comfortable reacting to the death of an evil person is to reflect on the fact that these were no more than human beings, just like the ones I see every day. And that any one of them, including myself, under different circumstances, might be led down the path of unspeakable evil. And - I wouldn’t feel the need to say this if it weren’t for your enthusiasm for accusing people of being apologists for evil - that we still need to be vigilant against these aspects of humanity, wherever they occur. And this > [@](#): > > I don’t know about you, but I’m not a rapist, nor do I have any desire to be one. I am not a murderer, nor do I wish to be one. I do not molest children, I do not shove guns into women’s vaginas. I do not make parents watch as I torture and mutilate their children. I do not execute or torture athletes for missing goals. Very nice. I submit that the reverse is also true - I’m also not a rapist, murderer, or child molester, but I don’t know about _you_ either. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/146 "2003-07-24T18:09:05Z")
Jesus Christ. Please show one place in this thread, or any thread, for that matter, where I said that the two individuals in question were not human beings. If you can’t do that, tear down your straw man and shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/147 "2003-07-24T18:15:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > … I AM INCREDIBLY NAIVE … If you’re so fucking “INCREDIBLY NAIVE” would you please try and stop yourself from any attempts at adult and logical reasoning? As to Jesus’ teachings, I personally view “Do unto others …” as his most fundamental of all. Why? IT IS BECAUSE THIS SAME CONCEPT APPEARS IN NEARLY EVERY OTHER RELIGION AND CULTURE ON THE FACE OF THIS ENTIRE PLANET. As I said, had I spent a lifetime of maiming, raping and torturing people I would not hope for a single shred of mercy. What I would expect is to have my head blown off and that people would dance on my grave singing “Hallelujah!” Trying to lecture me on how I am so mean and nasty for rejoicing that some disgusting filth got exactly what I would hope to get in the same situation just doesn’t have a lot of moral impact on me right now. This world _ **is a better place** _ without these scum bags. That which makes this world a better place gives me great joy. I feel great joy that this world has been improved one notch more by Odai and Qusai Hussein getting blown to shreds. Calling the soldiers who relieved them of their earthly travails “murderers” is a slap in the face to every person who has fought or died for our country. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/148 "2003-07-24T18:28:58Z")
Hey Zenster, thanks for skipping over the part where I apologized for using the word “murder”, oh but then you wouldn’t be able to stand on your 50 mile high horse. Have your party and pleasure and hilarious jokes celebrating death and destruction, I’ll just be breathing a quiet sigh of relief that their terrors are over, and hoping for a quick resolution for all of this unrest and ugliness. I guess that’s not enough. And gobear, I didn’t say I was “weeping” for their deaths, I said I was weeping for whenever someone loses their soul or humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/149 "2003-07-24T18:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Have your _party and pleasure and hilarious jokes celebrating death and destruction_, I’ll just be breathing a quiet sigh of relief that their terrors are over, and hoping for a quick resolution for all of this unrest and ugliness. I guess that’s not enough. > \*\* This is a total misreprensation of what Zenster is saying. He is happy and takes joy in the fact that these two monsters no longer share the same air on this planet as he does. He is not \* celebrating death and destruction\*, quite the opposite. He seems to be satisifed that these two arbitrators of death and destruction, these purveyors of suffering and manufacturers of ruined lives are dead. Your remarks on the other hand imply that those of us who rejoice in these bastards being put down are barbaric and savage. This strikes me as being both silly and sad. ---
**Author:** ![JoeyHemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ba0ec/32.png) [@JoeyHemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeyHemlock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/150 "2003-07-24T18:54:48Z")
Odai and Qusai Hussein were murderers and sadists. Certainly the world is better off without them having the power to commit said acts. For these terrible crimes, they should be punished. They chose to get into a gunfight with a superior opponent, and they paid the ultimate price of death for that choice. It’s a war, and people die in wars. Certainly it’s a big strategic victory when a major player in the opponent’s Army is killed or captured. This worked out to the advantage of the coalition. However, that need not mean that we _celebrate_ the deaths of these two men. I would, personally, rather have seen them tried and imprisoned for the rest of their lives. I can be satisfied that the Iraqi people (and the world) are better off without them without being _happy_ that two human beings are dead. Call me a bleeding heart liberal or whatever if you want, but don’t equate lack of cartwheels and party-poppers for the death of Odai and Qusai Hussein with being unpatriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/151 "2003-07-24T18:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoeyHemlock \* > \*\*Call me a bleeding heart liberal… \*\* You’re a bleeding heart liberal. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/152 "2003-07-24T18:59:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*What would Jesus do? > > (Somehow, I don’t think “whoopin’ it up in a celebratory glee” would be the answer) \*\* Assuming Jesus is actually the All-Powerful-Son-of-God and not Some Fictional Guy… Who gives a fuck? He allowed those two to do the things they did, right? May as well ask, “what would Saddam do?” -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/153 "2003-07-24T19:12:23Z")
**Jar** , Odai’s and Qusai’s “terrors” aren’t over. It’s exactly this sort of bleeding heart inanity that is getting people all over you like a bad suit. These two sick fucks never felt a bit of “terror” as they took out their cruelty and viciousness on whatever girl, woman, child or helpless prisoner suited their fancy. It’s also extremely hard to feel as though they “lost” their humanity. Most likely, they may have had twinges of conscience while maiming their victims. Did they let it stop them or cause some sort of turnaround in their hearts? No it did not. While Saddam may have fostered some habit of evildoing during their childhood, they gleefully indulged in it long after they knew it was wrong. They did not “lose” their humanity, they happily threw it overboard in an orgy of bloodlust and murder. I’ll apologize for taking you to task about the “murderer” comment, seeing as how you did clearly retract it. I’ll also agree with you that we should all hope “for a quick resolution for all of this unrest and ugliness.” Yes, that _ **is** _ enough. But please, enough bemoaning the fate of these two serial murderers. They did wrong, they knew it was wrong, and they kept on doing it anyway. Killing these maggots was an act of kindness to all involved, especially in comparison to letting them continue on their path of depravity. Let’s all hope these two scum balls felt at least one moment’s “terror” when they saw the TOW’s exhaust plume as it launched off the rail of that helo. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/154 "2003-07-24T19:13:20Z")
**What would Jesus do?** I imagine he’d serve something special at the Supper Club that evening. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/155 "2003-07-24T19:23:47Z")
No, lieu, Jesus would have brought you into a few more of these threads earlier, for some more comic relief. We’ve had some damned funny quips but we need more. Don’t let me catch you shirking your duties again. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/156 "2003-07-24T19:35:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Creative\_Munster \* > This is a total misreprensation of what Zenster is saying. He is happy and takes joy in the fact that these two monsters no longer share the same air on this planet as he does. He is not \* celebrating death and destruction_, quite the opposite. He seems to be satisifed that these two arbitrators of death and destruction, these purveyors of suffering and manufacturers of ruined lives are dead. > > Your remarks on the other hand imply that those of us who rejoice in these bastards being put down are barbaric and savage. This strikes me as being both silly and sad. Thank you very much, **Creative\_Munster**. It seems as though you are one of the few people here who is able to perfectly understand the proper context of my OP. You are my hero for the day. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/157 "2003-07-24T20:14:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Thank you very much, **Creative\_Munster**. It seems as though you are one of the few people here who is able to perfectly understand the proper context of my OP. You are my hero for the day. \*\* Welcome to Cranky’s Humble Pie Cafe. I’ve got permanent seating for myself here; you’re welcome to stay for just a slice. The foundation of this here eatery is the painful realization that when everyone misconstrues what I am saying, it is time to lay some blame at my own feet. I am sometimes (okay, fuck it, let’s be honest, **often** ) not as clear as I think I am, and I make it easy for people to miss what I meant to write, and even to take my words the wrong way. True enough, sometimes other posters are not careful in their reading, and a few are so itching for a fight that they’ll deliberately misread the meaning. But it’s a fair bet that when nearly everyone fails to perfectly understand me, I’ve fucked up somehow. The alternative, of course, is that everyone is an idiot and thereby incapable of understanding my perfectly-expressed, unfailingly-logical, brilliantly-written argument. I don’t think I want to call a vote on how likely that is. You want lemon meringue or sour cherry? I’ve got crow on the menu, but it’s not warranted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![JoeyHemlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ba0ec/32.png) [@JoeyHemlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeyHemlock)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/158 "2003-07-24T20:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Creative\_Munster \* > **He is not celebrating death and destruction, quite the opposite.** > [@](#): > > _from the OP by Captain Knowsmorethanyou_ > **Paying hard earned tax dollars in order to shrink your gene pool has been a genuine and personal pleasure.** While I would certainly agree that he is not celebrating death and destruction _in general_, he is clearly celebrating these specific deaths. Just like Jesus would have done\*. \*Note: Sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/159 "2003-07-24T21:00:14Z")
**Cranky** , I don’t see where you need to be serving yourself any pie at all. Your appreciation for **lieu** ’s humor is exactly the ticket for this overblown trainwreck. I want this thread to continue solely for its entertainment value. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268/160 "2003-07-24T21:08:56Z")
I apologize to Zenster for all of the bruhaha, but for the last time, I’m not bemoaning or regreting or lamenting or sympathizing or weeping for THE DEATH OF UDAY AND QUSAY HUSSEIN. It is the only way their lives could have ended, as far as I can tell, with their history of violence and terror. THE ONLY WAY. But on page three Zenster mentioned dancing on their grave and shouting hallelujah, and that strikes me as “raucous partying” (not on my personal scale of parties but in terms of reacting to death). I apologize for dragging down your thread Zenster. Carry on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-sympathy-card-for-saddam/190268.md?page=9)