# A Tale of Two Persecutions & Discriminations Through History; Blacks and Jews **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602 "2017-09-18T00:24:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/21 "2017-09-18T16:47:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then do what Jewish people have historically done - value education, maintain strong family structures, and so forth. > > Of course, your hypothetical doesn’t apply anywhere in the US, which appears to be the focus of the OP, but in the real world, it’s the way that Jewish people and Asians overcame (for the most part ) discrimination and persecution. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s all a lot easier said than done. Chopstick Asians (China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan) have a fairly long history of valuing education and strong family structures. The chopstick Asians are from Confucian cultures (I don’t think there is a philosophy out there that emphasizes family structures more than Confucianism) and they all had some form of imperial exam at some time or another to select government officials. Asian immigrants from other Asian cultures can struggle quite a bit. Everything from the portmaster to the prime minister could be chosen in large part by the results of an imperial exam system. This exam frequently provided about the only method of social mobility in these societies. The exams weren’t always perfectly fair but for much of recorded history, they used an exam to determine who the wealthiest, most powerful, most respected members of society would be (other than the emperor). Chopstick Asians are born into cultures that value family and education; for most of American history blacks were born into the worst form of slavery, they couldn’t import more slaves so they bred them and sold off the children. Its not like chopstick Asians come to this country, experience a shitload of racism and THEN decided to get our fucking act together and value family and education because it would help us overcome racism. Our culture has been around for thousands of years. If you look at African immigrants, the culture can be very similar to Asian culture but its not exactly fair to expect the same of a group of people who have a culture that is only about 150 years old and developed in the shadow of Jim Crow for 100 of those years. That doesn’t mean we can or should keep making excuses, but can we at least acknowledge that succeeding as a minority (especially a black of American Indian) is fucking hard and most white families would be in the same position as black families if they were born into the same world that the descendants of slaves are born into? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/22 "2017-09-18T16:53:19Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Two groups, blacks (I didn’t use the term “African-American” since this post applies to UK and other places) and Jews, have for centuries suffered egregious or at least invidious discrimination. Egregious? Invidious? Are you sure? How about - for instance - the treatment of Koreans by the Chinese and Japanese? Or Turks and Greeks? Egyptians and Nubians? Or… Look how easily Cortez found allies in his conquest of South America. Different cultures have cordially hated and abused each other since the dawn of time. It seems to me that it’s been business as usual; I hope that we are learning to be better. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/23 "2017-09-18T17:06:13Z")
This thread seals it. Next time Fox News or Breitbart have a story about the war on Christmas, the travails of white working class men, or the opioid epidemic in West Virginia, I will dismiss those stories with, “Why can’t those people be more like the Jews?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/24 "2017-09-18T17:32:07Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > So they should do nothing to actually address the discriminatory, racist issues inherent in their society that directly affect them negatively? They should just strive to succeed despite them? If so, why should they have to when others don’t have to strive against such things, and are in fact aided by it directly or indirectly? This is bad thinking. Noone said “lets do nothing about racism” I think to some extent we have to realize that we are not going to fix racism in time to do anyone alive today any good. I think we can further argue that to the extent that everyone strives to succeed despite racism, we will have an easier time fixing racism. Fighting racism is a generational issue. To some extent you have to wait for the racists to die and try to raise a next generation with less racism. In the meantime, you should strive to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/25 "2017-09-18T19:22:44Z")
If you want to see which would make people better off ending racism or practicing jewish and asian family practices look at those black people who are doing the latter. The overall black poverty rate is 24% the poverty rate for married two earner black couples with children is 2%. On the other hand look at those who do not have to fight racism but do not practice jewish and asian family practices. The overall white poverty rate is 10% and for white families that are headed by a single mother the poverty rate is 30%. From those statistics it seems obvious which would be more helpful to focus on. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/26 "2017-09-18T19:57:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They can work on those issues too - it isn’t either/or. > Yes, people should strive to succeed.Because people who don’t strive to succeed generally don’t. > > Besides, you’re missing the point. Jews and Asians and some other groups were discriminated against. They are successful nonetheless, and not because they said “I shouldn’t have to”. > > If a group expects society to fix their problems for them, they are going to be waiting a while. Whereas a group that maintains a stable family structure and pushes their children to excel in school, often finds that the problems are considerably less limiting. Especially in the 21st century. > > Regards, > Shodan This is based on an incorrect restatement of what I said, most noted by your reply “Yes, people should strive to succeed.” I did not ask “They should strive to succeed?” I asked “They should **just** strive to succeed **despite them**?” Of course none is just going to not strive to succeed. But if anyone claims that is all they need to do or should do or that those who have succeeded despite racist structures against them have somehow escaped/overcome these racist structures, then they are mistaken. And minorities have been done with waiting for decades; a common refrain of multiple threads of the Civil Rights Movement was “Freedom NOW!” and similar positions. Can you please restate your answer to my questions with my clarification in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/27 "2017-09-18T20:13:31Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > This is based on an incorrect restatement of what I said, most noted by your reply “Yes, people should strive to succeed.” I did not ask “They should strive to succeed?” I asked “They should **just** strive to succeed **despite them**?” Yes, people should strive to succeed despite their obstacles. > [@](#): > > Of course none is just going to not strive to succeed. Lots of black people fuck up their own lives. Many fewer Jewish and Asian people do. > [@](#): > > And minorities have been done with waiting for decades; a common refrain of multiple threads of the Civil Rights Movement was “Freedom NOW!” and similar positions. There is no need whatever for minorities to wait for anything - they can stop engaging in counter-productive activities right now, no matter what anyone else does. > [@](#): > > Can you please restate your answer to my questions with my clarification in mind? Done. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/28 "2017-09-18T21:12:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > This is bad thinking. > > Noone said “lets do nothing about racism” > > I think to some extent we have to realize that we are not going to fix racism in time to do anyone alive today any good. I think we can further argue that to the extent that everyone strives to succeed despite racism, we will have an easier time fixing racism. > > Fighting racism is a generational issue. To some extent you have to wait for the racists to die and try to raise a next generation with less racism. In the meantime, you should strive to succeed. I’m hoping he isn’t suggesting that it’s an either or situation as he states, but that sort of talk has been used for decades if not centuries to justify passivity on the part of minorities as well as the majority. “If they just tried harder, they’d overcome racism without [insert act the majority finds displeasing].” Yes fighting racism itself is a generational issue, but that is no excuse for anyone, particularly those being most affected by it, to not demand and fight for the structural effects of racism to end immediately. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/29 "2017-09-18T21:20:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is no need whatever for minorities to wait for anything - they can stop engaging in counter-productive activities right now, no matter what anyone else does. > > Regards, > Shodan And yet doing so does not remove the structural impediments racism puts in their way or any other person’s way. It is also not a guarantee that they will magically overcome these obstacles or their hampering effects. Just saying “try harder” is removing the burden from those who created the impeding structures and those whose direct actions or passivity perpetuates them. “Try harder” has been used for ages to justify this shifting of the burden under the guise of tough love life advice or some other such thing. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/30 "2017-09-18T23:55:14Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Then do what Jewish people have historically done - value education, maintain strong family structures, and so forth. > > > > Of course, your hypothetical doesn’t apply anywhere in the US, which appears to be the focus of the OP, but in the real world, it’s the way that Jewish people and Asians overcame (for the most part ) discrimination and persecution. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > So they should do nothing to actually address the discriminatory, racist issues inherent in their society that directly affect them negatively? They should just strive to succeed despite them? If so, why should they have to when others don’t have to strive against such things, and are in fact aided by it directly or indirectly? > > I know for whatever reason you don’t think the described hypothetical is real per the snipped part of your quote, but we might as keep the hypothetical going. What’s so bad about Shodan’s idea? As to “why should they have to when others don’t have to strive against such things” everyone has disadvantages and advantages. Why not strive to be the best that you can? ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/31 "2017-09-18T23:57:35Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Yeah, but there are parts of Brighton Beach they would rather stay out of. You should read Rich Cohen’s book Tough Jews. The Jewish community in America and else where has had problems with criminals and organized crime just like any other group of people. No question about it but those areas are few, far between, and less dangerous than say Bed-Stuy. The really bad Jewish areas are Chasidic but fortunately most of the violence among those rats of four legs is internecine. > [@HumbleThinker](#): > > What is your motivation behind this advice? > > In my experience, this advice is often accompanied by an implicit push for this to be the ONLY thing minorities do as opposed to doing that AND pushing back against racist societal structures that are often much more foundational issues that family structure. The self-serving nature of this advice also rings hollow when spoken to many members of the minority groups who do “organize their family lives and child upbringing in ways that work in 20th or 21st Century America” and are still “at the bottom.” There really aren’t many of those and most do slowly improve. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/32 "2017-09-19T09:04:31Z")
If black people just worked harder to succeed, one day they could all drive cars so nice the police will automatically assume they stole them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/33 "2017-09-19T09:09:18Z")
Also: “Chopstick Asians”? WTF? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/34 "2017-09-19T10:01:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also: “Chopstick Asians”? WTF? Self-identification, in this case, it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/35 "2017-09-19T10:12:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Self-identification, in this case, it looks like. I just find it odd, like singling out US citizens from other residents of North and South America by calling them “Corndog Americans”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/36 "2017-09-19T10:43:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I just find it odd, like singling out US citizens from other residents of North and South America by calling them “Corndog Americans”. Hey, that would be better than referring to them by [a popular game where I grew up](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornhole). ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/37 "2017-09-19T11:20:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I just find it odd, like singling out US citizens from other residents of North and South America by calling them “Corndog Americans”. As I understand it, in a lot of the world the term, “Asian,” would encompass not only what we in the US term “Asian” (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc) but also Indian, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Nepalese, and so on. It’s a short-hand way of distinguishing one broad swath of “Asian” from another. What would be the dividing line? The Himalayas? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602/38 "2017-09-19T11:46:45Z")
As this OP has already been posted around the internet, I am closing this thread with a note to stop posting it and its parallel posts on the SDMB. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-tale-of-two-persecutions-discriminations-through-history-blacks-and-jews/796602.md?page=1)