# A technically legal way to kill someone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 5, 2001, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608 "2001-06-05T02:05:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/21 "2001-06-05T11:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Danimal_ > Well, Enderw24 says he read this in his Torts book, so if his Torts text is right, then self-defense is a full defense to civil as well as criminal liability, at least in whatever jurisdiction his book was written in. That’s not true. A major problem with Enderw24’s analysis is that he’s confusing tort law with criminal law. His Torts book is dealing with a defense against the **tort** of battery. In other words, a third party can argue a self-defense exception if **sued** for shooting a person. There are similar provisions for criminal charges in some jurisdictions. However, not all jurisdictions recognize this defense. To answer the OP, this is not a way to legally murder somebody. It is a way to illegally murder somebody and get away with it by lying. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/22 "2001-06-05T12:31:25Z")
I agree that it’s not much of a technicality if you have to lie to pull it off. Maybe a better way to put the question is as follows: **Is there any way to plan to kill somebody, and execute the plan, such that even with full disclosure of the plan, you would face no civil or criminal liability?** For example, suppose you want to kill A. So you start having an affair with A’s wife and arrange to meet her on a day when you know A is coming home early from work - it is virtually certain that you will be caught _in flagrante_. You leave a loaded revolver on the table near the door, fully expecting that A will see you, fly into a jealous rage, pick up the revolver, and attempt to shoot you. As expected, A does all of this, but just before he pulls the trigger, you pull out your own gun and shoot him. Later, you disclose to the authorities the whole truth: You intended all of the time to kill A, but at the moment you shot him, you legitimately feared for your life. Would you face criminal and/or civil liability for the killing? ---
**Author:** ![jester21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed655f/32.png) [@jester21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jester21)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/23 "2001-06-05T13:07:00Z")
(trying to redeem himself w/ the next reply) Legal Murder… How about in war? One plans to kill somebody, and executes the plan. There is usually full disclosure of the plan. And normally you would not face civil or criminal liability. Does that count? ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/24 "2001-06-05T13:51:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > That’s not true. A major problem with Enderw24’s analysis is that he’s confusing tort law with criminal law. His Torts book is dealing with a defense against the **tort** of battery. In other words, a third party can argue a self-defense exception if **sued** for shooting a person. > > There are similar provisions for criminal charges in some jurisdictions. However, not all jurisdictions recognize this defense.\*\* Neurodoc was claiming that self-defense would excuse the shooter from criminal liability, but not civil liability. I was saying that it does get you off from civil liability too, in whatever jurisdiction Ender’s torts book covers. I don’t know any jurisdiction that doesn’t recognize self-defense as a defense against a murder charge, although maybe there are some where it won’t excuse you from accidentally killing the third party. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/25 "2001-06-05T13:56:55Z")
I always thought the best way would to just join the Army where you can travel to other lands & shoot people all you want as long as you are ordered to. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/26 "2001-06-05T14:05:51Z")
Become an executioner. [sub]I hear you can get a lot of work in Texas.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/27 "2001-06-05T21:01:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originallly posted by Danimal_ > Neurodoc was claiming that self-defense would excuse the shooter from criminal liability, but not civil liability. I was saying that it does get you off from civil liability too, in whatever jurisdiction Ender’s torts book covers. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I took this: > [@](#): > > Well, Enderw24 says he read this in his Torts book, so if his Torts text is right, then self-defense is a full defense to civil as well as criminal liability to mean you were saying that if it excuses you from tort it excuses you from criminal liability. You also seemed to focus on self-defense as an excuse, but the OP was talking about a different scenario: shooting the wrong person. That’s a far different scenario. We might be agreeing here, I just wanted to clarify my comments. I also want to reiterate that the thread was so confusing in part because people were discussing tort law and criminal law interchangeably. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/28 "2001-06-05T21:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalt \* > \*\*It would just be the same thing as shooting ted yourself and saying “he was attacking me” … your whole premise is based on the fact that nobody is looking. You can get away with all sorts of stuff when nobody is looking, if you are willing to lie about it after the fact. That doesn’t make it legal or right. In fact, it would be dumb to get a 3rd person involved (bill) - he may blackmail you later. After all, you are the one who did the killing (of course he would be a principle and guilty too). If you are going to kill someone, doing it alone is the smartest rout to take. > > You could even kill ted and then say you weren’t there. It worked for OJ. > > \*\* Q. What’s the name of OJ’s new website? A. Slash Slash Backslash Escape. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/29 "2001-06-05T21:54:13Z")
I agree that we shouldn’t allow the killer to commit perjury for his “legal” killing. This would only count as legal if you don’t commit ANY crimes during the commision of the act. Let’s see. I seem to remember an episode of “Law and Order” where a woman killed a guy by giving him biker colors for a present and then taking him to the bar where her biker gang friends hung out. The bikers were enraged and killed him. On the show the bikers that did the deed were prosecuted and the woman got away with it. I don’t even think she could be charged with conspiracy…conspiracy requires a second party, and she didn’t plan the killing with any of the bikers. She just knew that they’d whack a guy who wore their colors. I think this is the best way to do it…convince the victim to put themselves in a dangerous situation which you did not create. Of course, this requires that you are able to get the victim to do things because you ask him to. You can say, “Bet you can’t walk across the railroad trestle over the canyon”, but you can’t loosen the boards yourself. Assuming that you want to play by the rules and have some bizarre scruple about commiting perjury. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/30 "2001-06-05T22:34:03Z")
you could just _bore_ them to death. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2001, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/31 "2001-06-05T23:15:16Z")
Thanks all for your responses so far. Food for thought, for certain. Yes, this was indeed a case of a little bit of knowledge leading to a whole lot of trouble. Thank goodness I didn’t go through with my foolproof plan! See, my torts prof has been piling on quite a bit of work lately and… I did fail to consider a number of things. The least of them being that lying would probably be spotted quite easily by the police. Also, since the guy assaulting you will be charged with the murders you committed, he’d have no reason to protect you. Therefore, you’d have to kill him. Therefore, he’d be an idiot to help you with the plan. So, in essence, the only way this is a foolproof plan is if you have fools helping you pull it off. Also, this Torts book deals with the entire US. It’s the Prosser, Wade, & Schwartz book and it goes through the Restatement (second) of Torts and the common laws employed throughout US history on various topics. Specific state laws probably won’t be dealt with until the end of second year. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2001, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608/32 "2001-06-06T05:45:46Z")
Let’s not have any more threads of this sort, OK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-technically-legal-way-to-kill-someone/67608.md?page=1)