# A theological debate for the centuries: why does God allow free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605 "2004-01-09T06:44:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TonyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9c0ed/32.png) [@TonyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyJ)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/21 "2004-01-09T23:17:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*I don’t see why. Just because he knows what we’re going to do doesn’t mean he’s controlling it. \*\* Actually, I think **John Mace** is right; if God is omniscient, then free will is illusory - because the actions we take are known and set in God’s mind. In other words, if free will does indeed exist, then even God can’t be omniscient - because he can’t know with 100% certainty what a person will do next. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/22 "2004-01-09T23:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*I don’t see why. Just because he knows what we’re going to do doesn’t mean he’s controlling it. \*\* True. But if he knows in advance what we are going to do, then **something** is controlling it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/23 "2004-01-10T00:49:50Z")
I would say that the omniscience/free will paradox (while a valid topic of debate) is unrelated to non-belief because I still maintain that belief or the lack of it is not an act of will. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/24 "2004-01-10T01:32:59Z")
Maybe God mimics freewill by choosing not to see what we’ll do next? But he only does that for people who believe in him. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/25 "2004-01-10T01:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*True. But if he knows in advance what we are going to do, then **something** is controlling it. \*\* We are. I can grant that there is a “something” controlling us to a certain extent. That is, our environment, experiences, our physical and mental limitations, the influence of evolution, etc. Events here are random, which I guess you could say G-d directed them to be random, so he did have some input. I still can’t see how G-d knowing the outcome of something affects our free will. If _we_ knew the outcome, it would, because we would know any variation would be futile. G-d just knows all the variations. I have to admit, it’s never seemed that important to me if he was omniscient or not. That almost seems to stem from a need to be G-d’s focus at all times. Sounds more like a human label we gave him for our supposed benefit than a necessary requirement for G-d. Or a Santa Claus, naughty or nice thing. I’m kind of hoping we made it up, otherwise I’m on the hook for a lot more sin.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/26 "2004-01-10T02:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _IWLN said:_ > I still can’t see how G-d knowing the outcome of something affects our free will. It would kind of show it to be an illusion. If regardless of the amount of tortured thought we put into an action we always yield a “I knew you were going to do that” you really should question how much control you have. > [@](#): > > _more…_ > G-d just knows all the variations. I thought of that too but if God is just a master of probabilities that’s not really omniscience (though it would be pretty cool, imho). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/27 "2004-01-10T02:09:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I would say that the omniscience/free will paradox (while a valid topic of debate) is unrelated to non-belief because I still maintain that belief or the lack of it is not an act of will. \*\* Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/28 "2004-01-10T02:14:48Z")
I’m not sure I can agree that belief is not an act of will. It requires often complex mental constructs. It often takes specific maintenance (pray,church,text reading,etc). Seems like a lot of effort to think it it’s just “there”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/29 "2004-01-10T02:30:11Z")
Prayer and church would _presuppose_ belief, would they not. I would say that it’s (obviously) an act of will to explore possibilities, to examine evidence, etc. and that such exploration can _lead_ to a change in belief, but belief itself is a dependent variable. It can be _affected_ by acts of will by it cannot be changed _as_ an act of will. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/30 "2004-01-10T03:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > It would kind of show it to be an illusion. If regardless of the amount of tortured thought we put into an action we always yield a “I knew you were going to do that” you really should question how much control you have. Okay, I’ll try one more time. I can see what’s happening, but you have no knowledge of me, of my observation. Let’s say I’m a true psychic (no, I don’t believe in psychics, just pretend) and I know you’re going to break you leg today. How is my knowing, affecting your actions, your free-will? > [@](#): > > I thought of that too but if God is just a master of probabilities that’s not really omniscience (though it would be pretty cool, imho). Demoted from omniscient to just a _really_ good guesser. Okay, that sounds good to me. Does he use math to get his answers or just “wing” it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/31 "2004-01-10T13:40:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I agree completely with this. It’s probably the most important fact that “believer’s” miss. Definitely at odds with the whole Christian doctrine, though. I’m a believer, and I didn’t miss it. In fact, I was the first poster to express my support of it. Also, I am a Christian, and it is not at odds with my doctrine. > [@](#): > > In other words, if free will does indeed exist, then even God can’t be omniscient - because he can’t know with 100% certainty what a person will do next. He can’t make square circles either. If you are a free moral agent (which is how God created you) then your moral decisions are not rationally predictable. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/32 "2004-01-10T16:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > **I’m a believer, and I didn’t miss it. In fact, I was the first poster to express my support of it. Also, I am a Christian, and it is not at odds with my doctrine.** To be honest, though, **Lib** , you have some fairly non-traditional views of Christianity. You don’t hold with some of the more dogmatic notions of Christian salvation, i.e. you don’t believe that Christian belief is a _requirement_ for salvation, and that’s a doctrine which _does_ conflict with free will. It also conflicts with the conception of a just and omnibenevolent God. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/33 "2004-01-10T16:39:47Z")
BTW, it’s nice to see you posting in GD again. I’ve missed you in the religion threads. ---
**Author:** ![olanv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3ec8ea/32.png) [@olanv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/olanv)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/34 "2004-01-10T19:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xayoz306 \* > \*\*This question may have been asked before, and I apologize if it has been previously posted, but: > > If God has given us the gift of Free Will, why doesn he allow us to use it to deny His own exsistence? > I won’t post my own opinion just yet, but I am curious as to how others may posit there theories on this question. \*\* How are you defining free will? The ability to have a thought? It’s generally considered that people have thoughts. The ability to choose what we want to think? How do we know what we want to think, if we don’t know everything there is to think? How do we even know that we want to think? Are we to assume that we know every thought and thus are making an informed decision about whether or not we even want to think? What about God? It has been raised here that God knows what other people will do. What about God knowing what God is going to do, or what God is going to think? Does God even decide whether or not God even wants to think? Does God have the freedom to simply stop thinking? If God does have this freedom, but never exersizes it, then what does God have to compare His ‘decision’ to think against? What about action, God knowing everything that God is going to do? If God does decide to stop thinking and doing, in order to make an informed decision about whether or not God actually wants to think or do, then how can God be said to exist? Does God have the freedom to think and not exist? Can God will his existence away and actually not exist? If not, then from what does God have to compare the supposed choice of deciding to exist from? If God decides not to exist, then how can we say that God exists, or even, has ever existed? An unexisting is also an erasure from time. So, you’re wondering whether God actualy gave us free will. A more pertinent question is whether God even has free will to give. Is free-will something that even exists? If so, define it. Is it something that one being can give to another? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/35 "2004-01-10T21:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > I’m a believer, and I didn’t miss it. In fact, I was the first poster to express my support of it. Also, I am a Christian, and it is not at odds with my doctrine. At the heart of the Christian doctrine is the command, warning, stipulation, whatever, that the only way to G-d is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. This will not happen for most of the world. Some because they don’t hear it, some because they think it’s a crock and some because it is so foreign to their cultural teachings. According to Christian doctrine, at least what I was involved in and a member of for 40 years, these people are lost. According to the NT, it appears they are lost. My first question years ago was “so G-d _must_ have a back up plan?” I was told “no”. I did a lot of religious gymnastics to say, “well Christianity got this right, but are wrong about this”. It finally occurred to me that what I felt Christianity was wrong about was their main principle. Christianity felt wrong. I realized I wasn’t really a Christian. How can it not be at odds with your doctrine and most of all the Bible? ---
**Author:** ![pothead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecb155/32.png) [@pothead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pothead)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/36 "2004-01-10T22:20:09Z")
Originally God gave us free will but not the knowledge necessary to screw ourselves up with such a gift. He didn’t want us eating the apples, but once we did, there was no going back. So technically, this whole life thing was a failed experiment from the start and but I guess God knew that. Since we have free will, believing in God is an option and a test. If you believe, you will go to heaven. Its sort of like evolution- God’s weeding out the ‘bad’ people in order to maintain heaven as paradise. You can compare it to the First Amendment. Sure you’re allowed to say what you want but you’ll still be arrested on the spot if you start talking to your buddy FBI Director Robert Mueller about how you have plans to blow up the White House. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/37 "2004-01-11T00:36:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Diogenes the Cynic said:_ > Prayer and church would presuppose belief, would they not. Actually no I don’t think they do. Wouldn’t you agree that childhood prayer and church attendance generally comes chronologically before belief? > [@](#): > > _more…_ > I would say that it’s (obviously) an act of will to explore possibilities, to examine > evidence, etc. and that such exploration can lead to a change in belief, but belief > itself is a dependent variable. It can be affected by acts of will by it cannot be > changed as an act of will. Well, there might be some quibble room on the indoctrination process not really involving “will” but I would say any belief worth recognizing as such requires effort. I guess it depends how generic we are going to go with “belief”. Belief in a specific god figure or just warm fuzzies about the universe? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/38 "2004-01-11T01:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _IWLN said:_ > Let’s say I’m a true psychic (no, I don’t believe in psychics, just pretend) and I know you’re going to break you leg today. How is my knowing, affecting your actions, your free-will? If you are going to look at it that way I guess it doesn’t. It’s just that your definition of free will doesn’t seem able to affect the future. Not very useful free will if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/39 "2004-01-11T03:31:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xayoz306 \* > \*\*Protestants, during the Reformation, and to an extent today, Protestants believed that everyone was born and their fate was already determined (predestinarianism), \*\* No, not quite. Yes, that is the belief in a few Protestant denominations, but far from being something that separates all of Protestant Christians from Catholics. In fact, I’d say that predestination is held by very few Protestants. It’s odd how so many people think Protestants are all one thing, and then take some particular aspect held by relatively few denominations, and then apply that to all Protestants. For example, in history class in High School, somehow the topic of Protestants came up, and the teacher said the main difference between Protestants and Catholics was Protestants didn’t believe Mary was a virgin when giving birth to Jesus, which elicited gasps from some of the Catholics in the class. Of course being the lone Protestant in the room, I was pretty pissed at the statement myself, knowing it wasn’t correct. Back to the main question, “If God has given us the gift of Free Will, why doesn he allow us to use it to deny His own exsistence?” He absolutely allows us to use it to deny His existance. People deny His existence all the time. I think what you are really trying to ask is “If God has given us the gift of Free Will, why doesn’t he allow us to use it to deny His own exsistence and still go to Heaven?” or something like that, to which the simplest answer is because He’s God and He said so. When you create a universe, you get to set the rules. He’s said you can freely choose to believe in Him or not, but if you choose not, then there are repercussions for it in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2004, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/40 "2004-01-11T04:09:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > \*\*If you are going to look at it that way I guess it doesn’t. It’s just that your definition of free will doesn’t seem able to affect the future. Not very useful free will if you ask me. \*\* The example I used was to explain why some other entity knowing what you would do, wouldn’t affect what you actually do. G-d being omniscient doesn’t impede our choices. Free will is what allows me to choose my own future, good or bad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605.md?page=3)