# A theological debate for the centuries: why does God allow free will? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605 "2004-01-09T06:44:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/61 "2004-01-12T00:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > \*\*Just as your actions failed to change God/psychic’s prediction. > > Well I’m going to have to give up on the free will thing. If your thoughts and actions have no effect on the future but you want to keep calling it “free will” because it “feels” like free will then that’s the end of my argument road. ;)\*\* Perhaps it would be better to think of God as not subject to time, rather than have him “predict” what you’re going to in. Because in actual fact, you’ve already made all the decisions you’re ever going to make, you just don’t know it yet. 😉 Your thoughts and actions certainly have an effect on the future, but we’re bound by time, and cause and effect here, and God is not. If you were outside time, you’d be able to see all of eternity, would you not? And you would be able to find out the result of a truly random function, such as quantum fluctuations (or something). Does you knowing the result presuppose that the function was not truly random in the first place? Certainly, in time, up to that point, you have no way of finding out the result of that random function. In that sense, we have free will, and we are making the decisions that we want to. It’s just that we have to make them in time, and God isn’t bound by time, so he obviously knows what’s going to happen as a result of our decision, and in fact what the decision was. Notice I didn’t say “before we made that decision”, because that implies a time element. To God, we’ve already made all our decisions. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/62 "2004-01-12T01:06:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _Tabby\_Cat said:_ > If you were outside time, you’d be able to see all of eternity, would you not? How the hell should I know? > [@](#): > > Make sense? Not particularly. But your name and attitude reminds of a cute girl I once new, so you make me happy. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/63 "2004-01-12T07:14:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > I think God allows free will because He doesn’t want a bunch of robots programmed to believe in and love Him. He’s taken a risk by giving us free will. He wants us to come to Him by our free choice, not as a programmed response. Uh, **lynn** , how does an omniscient G-d take a risk? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/64 "2004-01-12T07:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CarnalK \* > \*\*Submitted too quick. That’s all addressing **DtC** comment to **Lib**. > > So IOW “Love” is not core in Buddhism, not mentioned in 8 precepts or 4 Noble truths. Buddha didn’t go around loving people like Jesus. As an enlightened one, human concepts of “love” was not a motive to Buddha. > > Just thought a distinction should be made in the philosophies. \*\* I didn’t say it was _core_ in Buddhism, I said it _worked_ for Buddhism and it is, in fact, taught as a meditative strategy, especially when it comes to overcoming negative emotions like anger or jealousy. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/65 "2004-01-12T10:40:12Z")
Just to clarify for anyone interested, I wasn’t talking about love as an emotion, but love as a mechanism — more akin to charity than to affection. I defined love as the means by which goodness is facilitated. It doesn’t come from the brain; it comes from God. With respect to the Buddha, when I made the point that Christ is not an electromagnetic field but rather Spirit, part of what I was saying was that His physical manifestations can and do take many forms. God is not individuated by flesh, but by the necessity of His existence. You cannot point to a particular man and say that he is God and there is no other because you would make Christ a liar, and Christ is truth. Truth is the lens through which goodness is seen. All who love are one with Him. If the Buddha loves, then he too is God. God is the agent of love. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/66 "2004-01-12T13:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > \*\*Uh, **lynn** , how does an omniscient G-d take a risk? \*\* 😕 By creating people with the freedom to choose whether to accept and believe in Him or not. Don’t know if risk is the right word, it’s all I could think of. If you were God, you’d have a choice: create people automatically programmed to believe and love you or give people free will. I know…that opens a whole new can of worms and I’ve heard the questions concerning that. Deep subject. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/67 "2004-01-12T14:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lynn73 \* > \*\*😕 By creating people with the freedom to choose whether to accept and believe in Him or not. Don’t know if risk is the right word, it’s all I could think of. If you were God, you’d have a choice: create people automatically programmed to believe and love you or give people free will. I know…that opens a whole new can of worms and I’ve heard the questions concerning that. Deep subject. \*\* Well since a risk pretty much indicates an uncertain or possible bad outcome, it doesn’t fit for an all knowing or all poswerful G-d. I always felt like giving us free will was a huge act of love and one that G-d knew would ultimately cause him to feel sorrow. But he did it anyway, for us. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/68 "2004-01-12T15:02:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Diogenes the Cynic said:_ > I didn’t say it was core in Buddhism, I said it worked for Buddhism and it is, in fact, taught as a meditative strategy, especially when it comes to overcoming negative emotions like anger or jealousy. Like I said I just wanted to distinguish between concepts. Buddhism seems to be getting a heavy Christian wash lately and Love is nowhere near the central Buddhist doctrine that it is in Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605/69 "2004-01-12T15:09:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tabby\_Cat \* > \*\*Perhaps it would be better to think of God as not subject to time, rather than have him “predict” what you’re going to in. Because in actual fact, you’ve already made all the decisions you’re ever going to make, you just don’t know it yet. . . . > > Make sense? \*\* **Tabbycat** , it makes perfect sense to me. You saved me a lot of typing with your post, and you said it more eloquently than I could have. And, since **CarnalK** is having warm-fuzzies with your name, that’s two people you’ve pleased today! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theological-debate-for-the-centuries-why-does-god-allow-free-will/223605.md?page=3)