# A theory I saw about how COVID may have escaped from the Wuhan lab **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [February 17, 2021, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082 "2021-02-17T03:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/522 "2023-03-03T22:34:32Z")
No, they censored claims that it was a “man-made” virus. Conservatives want to rewrite history and pretend like any “lab leak” talk was censored but the facts don’t support that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/523 "2023-03-03T22:59:50Z")
The damage to the perception of objectivity and credibility among scientists and media with regards to ideological independence has already been done. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/524 "2023-03-03T23:09:12Z")
Apology accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/525 "2023-03-04T00:28:53Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But the problem with that investigation, and with any investigation done so far is that we can have little confidence in any analysis performed on data supplied by China when we know for a fact that they have destroyed and otherwise withheld information and also have a oft-stated motivation to have one preferred outcome from any investigation undertaken. > > Might this be the full story? Sure, but what confidence should we have that it is? This analysis is not favorable to the Chinese since it shows that there were live wild animals, known to be carriers of SARS-coronaviruses, in the wet market when China previously stated that they outlawed it. In fact, it is less favorable than a lab accident. So your theory is that the Chinese only provided samples from residents they knew lived hear the Huanan market and hid all the samples from the other side of the river near the Wuhan Institute of Virology. And they gave the teams tons of samples that allowed them to get 700 different sequences that yielded surprising results (that they somehow planned or something?) that there were two viral jumps to humans that occured in the wet market. AND that the lineage that more closely resembles bat lineages happened after the other lineage. That means that intermediate species had to be involved. How did they make that happen? So the Chinese provided the environmental samples where positives matched, almost to the T, the cages where SARS-coronavirus carriers species were held. In fact, they narrow it down to cages in the western part of the market where raccoon dogs were held. Not officially, because that was illegal. However, one of the authors visited the market several years ago and took a picture. This makes them look better? The only plausible lab leak theory to Hunan market theory is that someone from across town managed to get a progenitor coronavirus to the animals in the markets so that they could mutate into two separate lineages found in the cages in the market. Those lineages then infected people living near the market. (In fact, those cases with no direct links to the market lived on average even closer, \< 1 km, to the market than those with direct links to the market.) ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/526 "2023-03-04T00:30:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s widespread knowledge at this point that social media companies were censoring the lab leak origin of the pandemic. This is not true. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/527 "2023-03-04T06:25:53Z")
The question is, what facts can we actually trust regarding the data that China has provided? What truly independent data has been released? What has been kept back or destroyed? What independent and open investigation has been done? Without knowing that, all of what you have written is subject to a great deal of uncertainty. But it answer to one of your questions, I think China would much rather have the world accept that it was a purely natural event (even if it was from an illegal animal trade) than have the finger pointed at the government-run virology labs. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/528 "2023-03-04T07:38:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Beyond having a preponderance of evidence favoring a wild source for the virus, those doubting a lab leak can’t help noting that the most vociferous lab leak proponents tend to be antivaccine, anti-masking and denouncers of Fauci and other public health experts. > > These folks want us to think that if they can implicate scientists and government entities in genesis of the pandemic, then all pandemic control measures can be dismissed. It’s an asinine, self-destructive viewpoint but popular among a certain demographic. It takes an astounding amount of doublethink to believe that covid is a deadly bioweapon that the dastardly Chinese loosed upon the world to wreak the destruction of the West _and_ that it’s just a common cold that you shouldn’t worry about, take any measures to avoid, or get vaccinated for. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/529 "2023-03-04T08:05:39Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > This is not true. It is a matter of record that Facebook at least was imposing a form of censorship on claims that it came from a lab. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/530 "2023-03-04T14:30:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is a matter of record that Facebook at least was imposing a form of censorship on claims that it came from a lab. Again, as @steronz already stated, it censored (for only a few months, btw) posts saying it was man-made or a bioweapon. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/531 "2023-03-04T15:20:50Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The question is, what facts can we actually trust regarding the data that China has provided? What truly independent data has been released? What has been kept back or destroyed? What independent and open investigation has been done? Well, we’re in trouble if the Chinese government is so smart, they only released data to foreign scientists that would give that specific of a result. Meanwhile, the US is trying so, so hard to find something to prove a lab leak theory which, btw, also relies on information out of China. Unlike the detailed science study (which one of the leaders signed a letter wanting the US to look harder into the lab leak theory until he analysed the data), we just have one agency saying “low confidence” and another agency saying “moderate confidence” while other agencies lean toward wet market. This is all based on complete unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/532 "2023-03-04T15:47:54Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > Again, as @steronz already stated, it censored (for only a few months, btw) posts saying it was man-made or a bioweapon. And I don’t think they should have censored such posts. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/533 "2023-03-04T15:49:57Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > Well, we’re in trouble if the Chinese government is so smart, they only released data to foreign scientists that would give that specific of a result. We don’t know do we? That’s the real point here. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/534 "2023-03-04T16:13:24Z")
That’s a fine opinion, but let’s not go around repeating the (false) conservative narrative that any discussion of a “lab leak” theory was included in that censorship. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/535 "2023-03-04T16:18:09Z")
And how exactly am I doing that? I resent the implication. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/536 "2023-03-04T16:19:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > [@Tfletch1](#): > > > > This is not true. > > It is a matter of record that Facebook at least was imposing a form of censorship on claims that it came from a lab. Right here. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/537 "2023-03-04T16:20:56Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Right here. Do you deny that that is what they did? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/538 "2023-03-04T16:21:52Z")
Yes. As I’ve stated. They only censored posts implying that it was man-made. It’s an important distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/539 "2023-03-04T16:36:13Z")
“man-made” covers a hell of a lot of ground, from “gain-of-function” (which we know the WIV was doing) right through to bio-weapon creation. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/540 "2023-03-04T16:36:58Z")
And it covers less ground than “it came from a lab.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082/541 "2023-03-04T18:57:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Scientists have no bearing on the conversation since all the evidence was destroyed. All of it? The stories I’ve seen describe considerable evidence from the wet market that wasn’t destroyed. Here’s one: > **[What does the science say about the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic?](https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/02/28/1160162845/what-does-the-science-say-about-the-origin-of-the-sars-cov-2-pandemic)** > > Two U.S. intelligence agencies reportedly support the lab leak theory — with low-to-moderate confidence. No evidence has been shared. Scientists have strong evidence of animal spillover at a market. > [@octopus](#): > > The damage to the perception of objectivity and credibility among scientists and media with regards to ideological independence has already been done. It has; but it’s been done mostly by those denying the facts of what has actually been widely reported in the media. Whether it was a lab leak or a market spillover, measures should be taken to reduce the chances of either; because both of them are things that could plausibly happen in the future, whichever of them happened with covid-19. If it did turn out to come from a lab, we couldn’t say ‘whew, we don’t have to worry about the markets’; and if the evidence is that it came from the market, that doesn’t mean ‘whew, we don’t have to worry about the labs’ (whether in China or elsewhere). I strongly suspect, however, that there were more preventative measures already in use in the lab than in the wet market, considering there’s convincing proof that there weren’t, in practice, any at all in the wet market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-theory-i-saw-about-how-covid-may-have-escaped-from-the-wuhan-lab/933082.md?page=28)