# A thread for Gulftiger to discuss politics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 30, 2024, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006 "2024-07-30T12:02:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/1 "2024-07-30T12:02:34Z")
This is a discussion that belongs in the pit, but probably in it’s own place, not the general thread about trolls. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/2 "2024-07-30T12:06:08Z")
> [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12459): > > The best I can say about 2020 is that I don’t know who won. Thats not saying Biden lost or Trump won. Thats saying that I can’t tell, given that our election systems for the most part are not transparent nor auditable. > > And the same goes for 2016, even though I could tolerate the results better. Turn off Fox news and pay attention to the real world. Elections in the USA are, in fact, transparent and auditable. If you truly don’t know who won then you have either been brainwashed or are trolling for outrage. Either way your best bet here is to keep away from your keyboard and just read. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/3 "2024-07-30T12:13:52Z")
Thank you kind mod. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/4 "2024-07-30T12:17:37Z")
> [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12464): > > All people have the right to keep their reproductive systems healthy and well. productive. The GOP disagree, and that’s before we get into people (and let’s be clear here - it’s pretty much just women) having their reproductive systems controlled by the government in all sorts of unpleasant and occasionally harmful ways. > [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12464): > > Wage and price controls by governments usually don’t work out. Don’t they? > [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12464): > > Sweden, Norway and Denmark don’t have minimum wage laws. They let the unions work out what fair pay is. That is more market driven and I’m good with that. Except that the right have been busily undermining the unions since the Reagan era by every means fair and foul. Which is why wage inequality has expanded so drastically in that time. But good to know you support labor unions. > [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12464): > > Police, well there are 2 sides to that coin. Police need to be accountable. I’m not for a police state at all. On the other hand, civilization depends on some fear of consequences for unwelcome behavior and having someone hand them out is necessary. Tough one here. Nobody is saying there shouldn’t be consequences for “unwelcome behavior”. That’s why we have laws and police who are supposed to enforce them in an even-handed way and be likewise subject to them. If you’re relying on fear of police brutality to achieve compliance with the law, you’re doing it very, very wrong because you are literally incentivizing “unwelcome behavior” and illegal acts. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/5 "2024-07-30T12:39:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > If you’re relying on fear of police brutality to achieve compliance with the law Not police brutality per se. There is no escaping the reality that civilization is made possible by the threat of violence. The entire system dead ends in violence unless you obey. If police come to arrest you and you don’t obey, they will unleash violence upon you. We all know that. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/6 "2024-07-30T12:56:36Z")
Election results here are routinely audited. It’s a straightforward process, not rocket surgery. It’s no mystery why Republicans can’t find tangible evidence of election fraud. _It’s because there’s no fucking fraud to find._ ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/7 "2024-07-30T13:03:02Z")
GulfTiger, it sounds, from what you said in the ‘Trolls’ thread, that though you’re not coming out as a full election denier, you have doubt as to the integrity of the 2020 election: > [@Trolls R Us Resurrections](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trolls-r-us-resurrections/950518/12459): > > The best I can say about 2020 is that I don’t know who won. Thats not saying Biden lost or Trump won. Thats saying that I can’t tell, given that our election systems for the most part are not transparent nor auditable. > > And the same goes for 2016, even though I could tolerate the results better. I’m curious as to what you think of my standard argument to election deniers. Even if you aren’t a full election denier yourself, perhaps you can point out any oversight or lapse of logic in this argument? * * * The 2020 election was the most closely watched election in history, specifically because Trump said before the 2016 election that it would be rigged, and even claimed it had been rigged after he won, saying that he would have gotten even more votes. Each state controls its election process independently. Biden won the 2020 election because he won 8 swing or battleground states- Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. So for the Democrats to have ‘rigged’ the vote, they would have had to achieve the equivalent of not just the ‘heist of the century’, but 8 separate ‘heists of the century’ on the same night. Some of those 8 swing states had Republican-controlled governments, like Arizona and Georgia. Brad Raffensperger, the Georgia Secretary of State at the time, who Trump famously asked to ‘find 11,780 votes’ had been a loyal acolyte in Trump’s good graces, up until then. Why would Raffensperger not have cried foul if he had had the slightest belief or evidence that the Georgia election had been rigged? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/8 "2024-07-30T13:20:04Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > Not police brutality per se. > > There is no escaping the reality that civilization is made possible by the threat of violence. That’s a rather Manichean view. Is there no middle ground, in your opinion? It’s either institutionalized violence or anarchy? > [@](#): > > The entire system dead ends in violence unless you obey. If police come to arrest you and you don’t obey, they will unleash violence upon you. We all know that. Yes. That’s exactly the problem. A world in which the only choice you have is to obey every police request, no matter how unreasonable or harassing, or face bodily harm and/or death _which you will be blamed for_ isn’t “civilized”. But if you wish to argue that George Floyd is responsible for his own death, please continue to do so. Police are given an extraordinary level of power. They should be subject to an extaordinary level of accountability. Otherwise we get the situation you advocate for – indeed, the situation we _have_ – where the police murder people with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/9 "2024-07-30T13:28:48Z")
So, as a woman I have to have my uterus be “productive” or I’m not to have any rights? Productive, as a idea means things biologically. It means to be a cromulent member of society I have to have babies. That means I have to be married, I suppose. That means I have lost my _choice_. That means I can’t have cats, either. You’re a lost little boy. I’d have pity for you if your _plan_ for my life, my choices, my value weren’t so disgusting. How’s bout you let another person/policy tell _you_ these things, for effing centuries and see how you feel about the loss of agency in your life and for your body. Think about that, little one. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/10 "2024-07-30T13:38:13Z")
I never mentioned G. Floyd. I don’t know how to not have police and civilization. But I think we give police too many nanny state laws with which to abuse us. For example, pulling someone over because it’s illegal to have an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/11 "2024-07-30T13:39:23Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > It’s no mystery why Republicans can’t find tangible evidence of election fraud. _It’s because there’s no fucking fraud to find._ Well, other than the fraud they commit themselves. Of course, that’s not what they’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/12 "2024-07-30T13:41:01Z")
Lots of mind reading there. I might try and unpack it later but I have work to do. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/13 "2024-07-30T13:42:54Z")
Dude, you said “productive” in your post. Like I said, that means things. Clarify. (Excuse me it was “productive.” [period]…) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/14 "2024-07-30T13:46:50Z")
> [@GulfTiger](#): > > For example, pulling someone over because it’s illegal to have an air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror is ridiculous. There is no such law. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/15 "2024-07-30T13:49:45Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > There is no such law. Of course there is. It’s one of many laws officers can use for pretextual stops. [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-air-fresheners.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-air-fresheners.html) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/16 "2024-07-30T13:52:19Z")
No, it says it right there in the title, > A majority of states have laws making it **illegal to hang anything from a rearview mirror that obscures a driver’s view**. But critics say the laws are often used as pretexts. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/17 "2024-07-30T13:56:40Z")
Then I guess I’m confused why you said that there is no such law? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/18 "2024-07-30T13:58:27Z")
Because there’s also no law that makes illegal to walk your pet alligator without a leash. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/19 "2024-07-30T14:00:21Z")
> [@mjmartin](#): > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-air-fresheners.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/17/us/police-air-fresheners.html) That’s from three years ago. More recently, states have been declaring that motorists cannot be pulled over simply because there is something hanging from the mirror. > **[Clear Vision: Assembly Bill Would End Traffic Stop For Obstructed View](https://www.post-journal.com/news/top-stories/2022/03/clear-vision-assembly-bill-would-end-traffic-stop-for-obstructed-view/)** > > What role should “pretext” traffic stops like having an obstruction of a vehicle’s windows have in policing in New York state? The New York State Assembly says their role should be much less than they have been. Earlier this week, following a floor... > **[Our Chicago: New Year, New Illinois Laws](https://abc7chicago.com/our-chicago-new-illinois-laws-2024-full-list/14246571/)** > > Our Chicago takes a closer look into the new year, which will bring more than 300 new laws to Illinois. > **[Virginia changes law regarding “dangling objects” in vehicles](https://www.allenandallen.com/blog/virginia-changes-law-regarding-dangling-objects-in-vehicles/)** > > Perviously, Virginia police officers could pull people over simply for having something dangling from their rear view mirrors. Read on. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2024, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006/20 "2024-07-30T14:00:57Z")
That didn’t clarify your initial post, at all. But I don’t care to spend anymore time on this tangent. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-gulftiger-to-discuss-politics/1005006.md?page=2)