# A thread for Rudy {Rudy Giuliani} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 16, 2023, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355 "2023-08-16T04:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/41 "2023-08-05T21:16:17Z")
But only the first two responses from one user resulted in me being emailed. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/42 "2023-08-05T21:18:56Z")
It depends open what you believed to be the truth. If you really thought she was there, for whatever reason, then it’s not a lie. Either way, you were being careless with the truth, but it’s only a lie if you knew your statement to be false at the time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/43 "2023-08-05T21:22:11Z")
Okay, so Rudy was lying or completely delusional, since there was absolutely no shred of rational basis for believing what he said. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/44 "2023-08-05T21:25:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that I think that the insistence is due to the identity of the person who made the statement. That’s a fair point. But I’m sure you’ll agree that Rudy’s track record over the past few years suggests he and the truth have a strained relationship. His Bar license wasn’t suspended for theft, but for lying. > [Rudolph W. Giuliani](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/nyregion/giuliani-investigation-special-master.html), a former top federal prosecutor, New York City mayor and lawyer to a president, had his law license suspended after a New York court ruled on Thursday that he made “demonstrably false and misleading statements” [while fighting the results of the 2020 election](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/25/us/politics/rudy-giuliani-dominion-trump.html) on behalf of Donald J. Trump. And, to be fair to the posters in this thread, many news organizations have also said he admitted lying: > **[Giuliani claims the First Amendment lets him lie – 3 essential reads](https://theconversation.com/giuliani-claims-the-first-amendment-lets-him-lie-3-essential-reads-210514)** > > To what degree can the First Amendment be used to protect someone from the consequences of lying? > **[Ex-Trump lawyer Giuliani admits lying about election workers who sued him](https://www.scmp.com/news/world/united-states-canada/article/3229044/rudy-giuliani-admits-lying-about-georgia-election-workers-who-sued-him-defamation)** > > The ex- New York City mayor and lawyer for Donald Trump conceded he spread lies about Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss involving rigging that supposedly could have helped Biden win the 2020 election. > **[Ex-Donald Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani admits to lying about Georgia voter fraud](https://www.wionews.com/world/ex-donald-trump-lawyer-rudy-giuliani-admits-to-lying-about-georgia-voter-fraud-619957)** > > Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump’s former lawyer, and ex-mayor of New York City, has admitted that he made false statements when he accused two Georgia election workers of committing ballot fraud. > > The confession came during a late night Tuesday filing... > **[Rudy Giuliani admits spewing lies about Georgia election workers who sued him...](https://www.nydailynews.com/2023/07/26/rudy-giuliani-admits-spewing-lies-about-georgia-election-workers-who-sued-him-for-defamation/)** > > Rudy Giuliani admits he spewed lies about two Georgia election workers he infamously accused of trying to rig the 2020 election for President Biden. The ex-New York City mayor and current lawyer fo… > **[Giuliani Admits to Spewing Lies About Georgia Election Workers](https://newrepublic.com/post/174610/rudy-giuliani-lied-georgia-election-workers)** > > The workers were targeted as part of a larger scheme to overthrow the presidential election. > **[Giuliani's casual admission of lying speaks volumes about him — and Trump](https://www.yorkdispatch.com/story/opinion/editorials/2021/08/16/giulianis-casual-admission-lying-speaks-volumes-him-and-trump/8149308002/)** > > “Yeah I mean I just picked a number out of the air,” Giuliani told the FBI agents. Earlier in the same interview, Giuliani’s then-law partner and counselor, Marc Mukasey, opined, “You’re under no obligation to tell the truth” while campaigning for a... ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/45 "2023-08-05T21:26:00Z")
Or he was simply wrong. Hell, he could even have been correct and realized that he couldn’t substantiate the claim. I don’t know. And neither do you. But given who he is, I guess the worst must be ascribed. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/46 "2023-08-05T21:27:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But given who he is, I guess the worst must be ascribed. 🙄 You can’t seriously dispute that, can you? Given who he is, of course the worst must be ascribed. By us anyway, not in court. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/47 "2023-08-05T21:28:32Z")
Why would I, or anyone, believe what he said when not a shred of evidence was produced to support it? Why would he believe it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/48 "2023-08-05T21:32:41Z")
News organizations saying he lied may somewhat excuse the mistake the OP and other posters have made in claiming he lied, but it does not excuse those who cling to the belief. The OP claimed “Rudy admits he lied…”. Was as he lying when he made that claim? Or was he simply mistaken. For me, an accusation of lying requires proof, so I assume the OP was simply mistaken, probably for the reason you raised. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/49 "2023-08-05T21:36:20Z")
Are you saying that RG is a serial killer and rapist? I mean there’s no evidence for that, just as there’s no evidence that he was lying and just not mistaken. I mean, given who he is, the worst must be ascribed, right? Gotta run to dinner reservations. Back later, or tomorrow. Have a nice night, all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/50 "2023-08-05T21:50:25Z")
He probably lied. The alternate explanation is that he has no connection to reality and rational thought. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/51 "2023-08-05T21:51:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Gotta run to dinner reservations. Back later, or tomorrow. Have a nice night, all. Great to have you back. Enjoy your dinner > [@magellan01](#): > > Are you saying that RG is a serial killer and rapist? I mean there’s no evidence for that, just as there’s no evidence that he was lying and just not mistaken. I mean, given who he is, the worst must be ascribed, right? No, I’ll stick to the lying part. That’s where he has a well established track record. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/52 "2023-08-05T22:15:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t get this insistence that an incorrect statement from a person MUST be a lie. Who insisted on that? Do you know what he said about the election workers in Georgia? Do you think he had a reasonable basis to believe they were true? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/53 "2023-08-05T22:22:59Z")
So if I picked a random stranger and loudly proclaimed that that person was in the habit of murdering children, I wouldn’t be lying? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/54 "2023-08-05T22:40:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And that’s what people do when they try to insist that someone who is mistaken _must_ be lying. It’s assuming evidence that is not there. Incorrect. We have crap loads of evidence. Rudy Giuliani is a habitual liar. He claimed that he had evidence of vote fraud then admitted that he only had guesses. He claimed in public that there was vote fraud, then admitted while under oath in a court of law that there was no vote fraud, but instead he intended to file lawsuits based on technicalities and minor voter law irregularities. Your insistence that he honestly believed his claims but was simply incorrect is being made despite the fact that he has lied repeatedly on the subject, and that he was basing his claims off of video that clearly did not show what he said it did. You are the one really going far out on a limb here and making wild assertions that fly in the face of all evidence. He was 100% without question lying. He has suffered massive legal problems because of his propensity to lie, and he will continue to do so. He will face them in this case as well, because others as aren’t willing to cover their eyes and ignore everything as you seem to be. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/55 "2023-08-06T00:12:31Z")
It appears that [the judge in the defamation case](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/05/politics/giuliani-lawsuit-2020-election/index.html) believes that Giuliani indeed lied about the election workers given his admissions to date: > A federal judge on Friday demanded an explanation from [Rudy Giuliani](https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/01/politics/co-conspirators-trump-indictment/index.html)as to why he conceded in court that he made [false and defamatory statements](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/politics/giuliani-defamation-election-fraud/index.html) about two Georgia election workers after the 2020 election but hasn’t forfeited their lawsuit against him. > … > In a court filing last month, [Giuliani](https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/26/politics/rudy-giuliani-georgia-election-workers/index.html)acknowledged that he had made defamatory statements about the election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, though he stopped short of conceding that his statements caused damages to the pair. Giuliani also said in the July filing that he still wanted to argue that his statements about voter fraud in Georgia were protected by free speech. > > Giuliani has until Tuesday afternoon to either forfeit the lawsuit, conceding he is liable and opening himself up to pay the ballot-counters’ damages, or give Judge Beryl Howell more explanation and appear before her for a hearing in mid-August. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/56 "2023-08-06T02:39:51Z")
I would describe what you presented as the howling of a madman. Now if that person were not random, it would depend on the person you were referring to. In which case there wold be three possibilities: A: you are correct. B: you are incorrect. C: you are incorrect and know it, aka, lying. Look, we’re talking about when a person’s false/incorrect statement can be fairly characterized as a lie. For me, the person making the statement must _know_ the statement to be incorrect when he makes it. If you believe differently, good for you. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/57 "2023-08-06T02:45:24Z")
Multiple posters are insisting his statement was a lie. Just scroll and read. Which I find both mind boggling and hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/58 "2023-08-06T02:56:51Z")
You’re attempting to shift the burden of proof. The OP claimed RG admitted “he lied”. In my very first post in this thread I said I don’t think that’s the case and asked the OP for a cite where he made such an admission. None has been presented. A simple cite showing RG admitting that he lied would have satisfied me. But it appears that such a cite does not exist. As it stands the OP’s headline is either just wrong or a lie. Since I don’t know what is in his mind, I assume it was just a factually incorrect statement. Him asking the mods to correct his headline would strengthen that belief. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/59 "2023-08-06T03:06:42Z")
Hmm. I’m getting emails for some posts, but not for others. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2023, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/60 "2023-08-06T03:48:03Z")
For the record, the OED and most other dictionaries include both definitions for ‘Lie’, specifically both an intentionally false statement, and used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression. (Both from the OED) So feel free to feel he has not lied based on the first option (even if given his track record most of us are going to vehemently disagree), but be aware that it’s just a valid to say he is indeed lying by the second. ETA - for that matter, back in post # 2, I specified that it looked like rather than admitting he was wrong or lying, he was choosing not to _contest_ that point in order to move on to other points of the case. Which, I grant, is a difference between admitting to lying. But it’s still leaving him in a bad place with the judge in his countersuit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355.md?page=4)