# A thread for Rudy {Rudy Giuliani} **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 16, 2023, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355 "2023-08-16T04:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/81 "2023-08-08T15:53:10Z")
For those who think that Giuliani is just a goofball who makes honest mistakes… > **[Rudy Giuliani Claims He Has Proof Of Voter Fraud, But Says He Can’t Share It Yet](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/11/15/rudy-giuliani-claims-he-has-proof-of-voter-fraud-but-says-he-cant-share-it-yet/?sh=5d168482235e)** > > “We have proof we can’t disclose yet,” President Trump’s lawyer told Fox News. > When asked by Bartiromo if he will be able to prove these claims before January, Giuliani claimed he has proof that he “can’t disclose yet.” > > “We have people that I can’t really disclose that can describe the hardware in great detail,” said Giuliani. Then a year and a half later he confessed the truth. > **[Giuliani told Arizona official ‘We just don’t have the evidence’ of voter fraud](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/21/giuliani-no-evidence-voter-fraud-arizona-jan-6-commitee)** > > Former Trump lawyer acknowledged his efforts to overturn the election were based on mere ‘theories’, officials recall **He is a liar.** He doesn’t just blindly believe things. He makes deliberately false statements. This isn’t speculation, it has been objectively shown right in public. We need to be clear here and not try to make excuses for the man. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/82 "2023-08-08T16:20:53Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > **He is a liar.** He doesn’t just blindly believe things. He makes deliberately false statements. This isn’t speculation, it has been objectively shown right in public. In addition to this, the entire stolen election edifice is founded on only one piece of data - that Donald Trump says so and repeats it. That, and only that, is the genesis of it all and there isn’t a single piece of actual evidence; knowing that, nobody can innocently say something in support of that belief. Supporting it equals lying. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/83 "2023-08-08T16:37:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Did Rudy know he was speaking of things that were not true? Possibly but quite likely not in my opinion. > … I have the opposite opinion. Did Rudy know he was lying? Probably, but not guaranteed (or necessary). IMO, it is more likely that he simply didn’t care if he was lying or not. Did Rudy know that the infamous video showing “suitcases full of ballots” was highly edited surveillance footage designed to give the impression of nefarious actions by the election workers? I suspect he knew it was highly edited footage and that it was designed purposely to suggest wrongdoing. Did he really believe that it was showing actual voter fraud being committed? I don’t think he gave much thought one way or the other. Like **BobLibDem** , I find fault with Rudy’s spreading it as being true, as well as considerably more bits of disinformation. Not just because he did not perform a minimal amount of verification, but also for not issuing retraction when it was shown to be false. Just like Trump, I don’t think there is any way to prove what Rudy actually thought two and a half years ago. What his actions were and his intent for those actions are clearly documented, however, and both should be held accountable for those actions, not for their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/84 "2023-08-08T17:24:15Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > Did Rudy know he was lying? But in the environment of entire stolen-election thing being nothing more than a construct of Trump’s, without any actual, real evidence, how could he not have known? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/85 "2023-08-08T17:29:09Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > In addition to this, the entire stolen election edifice is founded on only one piece of data - that Donald Trump says so and repeats it. I can’t remember at this point, but wasn’t (drunk) Rudy the one that initially told trump (on election night) to just lie and say he won anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/86 "2023-08-08T17:29:38Z")
He said that he had proof. He did not have proof. There is no way that he could have failed to know that he did not have proof. That makes his statement that he had proof, a lie. And if he was making statements that were lies, then he is a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/87 "2023-08-08T17:35:38Z")
So, if he told everyone to [“just say we won”](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/13/rudy-giuliani-trump-book), shouldn’t that be the end of it? > [@Chronos](#): > > There is no way that he could have failed to know that he did not have proof. Especially considering he was saying these things before the people were even done voting (or at least long before they were done counting). ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/88 "2023-08-08T17:36:13Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I can’t remember at this point, but wasn’t (drunk) Rudy the one that initially told trump (on election night) to just lie and say he won anyway? I honestly don’t know. But wasn’t trump saying before the 2016 election that he could only lose if the election was rigged? Note: I may be wrong but I’m not lying 😆 ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/89 "2023-08-08T17:50:29Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > But wasn’t trump saying before the 2016 election that he could only lose if the election was rigged? A lot of ground work was done. Mail in ballots were being vilified by Republicans and Trump long before the election. And, of course, the election fraud myth that we thought was just a justification for restricting access to polls was also intended to be in place before the inevitable election loss. Don’t know if Trump was smart enough but someone was. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/90 "2023-08-08T17:52:16Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So, if he told everyone to [“just say we won”](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/jul/13/rudy-giuliani-trump-book), shouldn’t that be the end of it? Yep. I don’t know why anyone would expend an atom’s worth of energy trying to conjure up some benefit of the doubt for this villain. There’s no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/91 "2023-08-08T18:06:06Z")
> [@Rudy admits he lied and made defamatory statements about election workers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rudy-admits-he-lied-and-made-defamatory-statements-about-election-workers/987645/57): > > Here is how he treats this crap. > > > “It’s not my job in a fast-moving case to go out and investigate every piece of evidence that’s given to me,” Giuliani added. “Otherwise, you’re never going to write a story. You’re never going to come to a conclusion.” > > Do you get it? **He doesn’t care about claims being true or not.** He just makes shit up. This is what he said under oath. He claims that there is definitive proof but has no idea if it’s true or not, because he doesn’t bother to check and it isn’t important that it’s true as long as he’s putting out the idea that there was election fraud. That’s lying. He has admitted for years that he lied. [tongue firmly in cheek] I think you’re missing an important point here - if Rudy were to actually check the validity of the claims, he would find they were wrong, and therefore he couldn’t bring them to court. By **not** checking into the claims, he can “believe” them, and bring them to court and he’s not a liar![/tongue] > [@Rudy admits he lied and made defamatory statements about election workers](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rudy-admits-he-lied-and-made-defamatory-statements-about-election-workers/987645/72): > > In addition to this, the entire stolen election edifice is founded on only one piece of data - that Donald Trump says so and repeats it. no, no no. There’s a memo that came from a staffer that heard from someone that it was possible. That’s at least 3 pieces of data! (or at least three pieces of something…) > [@A thread for Rudy {Rudy Giuliani}](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/988631/76): > > He said that he had proof. He did not have proof. There is no way that he could have failed to know that he did not have proof. That makes his statement that he had proof, a lie. I hate to be actually _defending_ something said by this POS, but, consider this (very likely) scenario: > [@](#): > > Staffer comes to Rudy: “I’ve got a video showing poll workers throwing out Trump ballots” > Rudy, 30 minutes later: “We’ve got proof of fraud. Can’t tell you what it is yet, but we’ve got it” > Next day, after Rudy sees video: “Dude, you realize this is from a movie made in 1963? This is not proof.” AT THE TIME, Rudy truly thought they had evidence. He was a fool for declaring that they had proof before the proof was vetted, but he was not (necessarily) lying. OK, let me rephrase that - either he’s an idiot for claiming they had proof before it was vetted, or he’s a liar for saying they had proof when they had none. NO MATTER WHAT, this was done to seed doubt in the electoral system to further their aim at disenfranchising future voters. The man is evil. Whether he’s also a liar or a fool (or both) is a matter of semantics. No it isn’t. He’s an evil, foolish liar, and the sooner he’s out of the public consciousness, the better. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/92 "2023-08-08T18:17:57Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > [tongue firmly in cheek] I think you’re missing an important point here - if Rudy were to actually check the validity of the claims, he would find they were wrong, and therefore he couldn’t bring them to court. By **not** checking into the claims, he can “believe” them, and bring them to court and he’s not a liar![/tongue] See… Now you’re thinking like a politician. 😉 You’d make a great political consultant! (Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you, I take it back.) > [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > AT THE TIME, Rudy truly thought they had evidence. He was a fool for declaring that they had proof before the proof was vetted, but he was not (necessarily) lying. As to this… I would accept this premise except he later admitted they never had proof, they only had theories, and assumed that the proof would appear. Think of a desperate, degenerate gambler. (Not a stretch I guess.) They owe someone a lot of money. They tell that person, don’t worry, I have the money, I will pay you the day after tomorrow, I promise. I just need to get it to you, but I have the money. The next day they go in to a casino and bet all they have on the roulette wheel. If they win they will have more than enough money to pay off the debt and have some left over. They lose. Now, was that gambler lying? They had faith that they’d be able to pay off their debt, they had a gut feeling that their lucky break was coming. They assumed that they’d appear in two days’ time with the money in hand and everything would be square. But that doesn’t matter. Their belief that everything would work out doesn’t matter. They claimed they had money they _knew_ they didn’t have, and it doesn’t matter that they thought that they’d eventually have it. In the moment they were lying and knew it. And later when it doesn’t work out the way they hope, and they’re stuck, they will beg for forgiveness and apologize and swear they weren’t lying, they were sure they’d make it all right. But they were definitely, unambiguously lying. That is what Rudy Guiliani is. He might have assumed that the proof would show up to vindicate their claims, but regardless, he knowingly and willfully lied. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/93 "2023-08-08T18:51:12Z")
Consider 2 claims Giuliani could have made 1. “Evidence exists.” 2. “I know that evidence exists.” If he made the second claim, even @magellan01 would have to admit it was a lie. But why isn’t “I know that” implicitly understood to be part of any claim. What is the difference between the two assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/94 "2023-08-08T20:23:07Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > But why isn’t “I know that” implicitly understood to be part of any claim. What is the difference between the two assertions. Of course it _is_ implicitly understood. That is the default. If you don’t want to appear to know something, then you use a qualifier like “I think” or “I believe” or “I assume”. When you say “I know that”, you’re only emphasizing how strongly you know something. That’s at least how American English works. Look at these statements: The sky is blue. I know that the sky is blue. I think that the sky is blue. I assume that the sky is blue. I believe that the sky is blue. I imagine that the sky is blue. To me and I believe any native English speaker, we’d equate the first two statements. The other 4 have qualifiers to inform the reader/listener that they aren’t making a definitive statement of fact. In any case, you also have to look at what Rudy was saying in context. When he said they had evidence, he was making the case that what they were saying was true. He very, obviously, unambiguously meant that he knew for a fact that they had evidence. That is the only reason for speaking. He was trying to convince the public. There was no prevarication. No caution. It was clear and definitive. Anything suggesting otherwise is revisionism that ignores what is well-documented public information. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/95 "2023-08-08T21:42:14Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > They tell that person, don’t worry, I have the money, I will pay you the day after tomorrow, I promise. I just need to get it to you, but I have the money. > > The next day they go in to a casino and bet all they have on the roulette wheel. If they win they will have more than enough money to pay off the debt and have some left over. They lose. > > Now, was that gambler lying? Yes. They explicitly said “I have the money”. They did not have the money. They had a _dream_ of having money, but they lied about actually having it. Same with Rudy. He had no proof. He knew he had no proof. he claimed he had the proof. He _hoped_ the proof would arrive soon. It did not. There was no proof. Rudy Lied. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/96 "2023-08-09T02:03:17Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > For those who think that Giuliani is just a goofball who makes honest mistakes… Jeez, now we’re getting close to the Lindell Line, the political equivalent of the [Mendoza Line](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/idioms/mendoza-line). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/97 "2023-08-09T04:21:43Z")
That’s a really good analogy. I think it applies, for at least some of his assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/98 "2023-08-16T04:16:08Z")
Well, the warning is a little late, but… > Stop your messing around; > Better think of your future, > Time to straighten right out, > Creating problems in town. > > Rudy, > A message to you, Rudy. > A message to you. > > Stop your fooling around, > Time to straighten right out. > Better think of your future > Else you’ll wind up in jail. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/99 "2023-08-16T05:35:06Z")
Everything Trump touches dies … eventually. Alas, there is a clock and if the last little Trump touchee dies in say 2028, then most of the damage will have been done. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2023, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355/100 "2023-08-16T06:13:36Z")
Boo-fucking-whoo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-rudy-rudy-giuliani/989355.md?page=6)