# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 138
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2742 "2018-02-23T21:46:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > It’ll be Sarah first: “Rick Gates wasn’t even an official ‘official’ member of the campaign. He was just some kid who came in occasionally and made copies for people. He was friends with that Papadapolous kid, I think and that’s the only reason he was there.” “That Manaford dude brought him in. And the Mantaroo dude we barely knew. It’s not like Mr. Trump and Mr. Manswell lived in the same building a floor apart and his daughter noted they spent oodles of time together or anything!” ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2743 "2018-02-23T22:29:43Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > “You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly. As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered." [Vizzini] It’s an prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition. [/Vizzini] ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2744 "2018-02-24T02:59:06Z")
Back when Manafort was working on the Ukrainian Presidential campaign, his candidate’s strategy included poisoning his opponent with dioxin. Hillary should consider herself lucky. This Russia / Ukraine stuff is nasty and dirty to an extent that we just don’t see here in the USA, despite the people that try to equivocate it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2745 "2018-02-24T03:13:57Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Back when Manafort was working on the Ukrainian Presidential campaign, his candidate’s strategy included poisoning his opponent with dioxin. Hillary should consider herself lucky. > > This Russia / Ukraine stuff is nasty and dirty to an extent that we just don’t see here in the USA, despite the people that try to equivocate it. I take it you haven’t read [Paul Manafort’s daughter Amanda’s text messages](http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3) yet? Here’s a couple: > [@](#): > > Don’t fool yourself. That money we have is blood money. > [@](#): > > You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly. As a tactic to outrage the world and get focus on Ukraine. Remember when there were all those deaths taking place. A while back. About a year ago. Revolts and what not. Do you know whose strategy that was to cause that, to send those people out and get them slaughtered. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2746 "2018-02-24T03:51:00Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I take it you haven’t read [Paul Manafort’s daughter Amanda’s text messages](http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3) yet? Here’s a couple: Wonder if Mueller has talked to _her_ yet? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2747 "2018-02-24T04:09:29Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I take it you haven’t read [Paul Manafort’s daughter Amanda’s text messages](http://www.businessinsider.com/paul-manafort-daughter-text-messages-ukraine-2017-3) yet? Here’s a couple: I read those about a year ago when they were first published, may have even posted a link around here someplace. I thought they were extremely insightful into showing who Manafort & Co. really are. But I think it was just too soon… most people simply weren’t ready to believe that the corruption was that deep and ugly – let alone that it reached into the White House. **Ann Hedonia** ’s comments above are well made. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2748 "2018-02-24T07:24:28Z")
The lie that Gates was indicted for involves a dinner meeting at which Ukraine was discussed. The meeting was with a lobbyist and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. The money laundering also involves ex-Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer > **[Gates cuts a deal, and Manafort hit with new charges in Mueller probe](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-trump-campaign-aide-rick-gates-set-plead-guilty-n849256)** > > Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide and business associate of Paul Manafort, entered the plea in federal court in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2749 "2018-02-24T08:44:47Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The lie that Gates was indicted for involves a dinner meeting at which Ukraine was discussed. The meeting was with a lobbyist and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. > The money laundering also involves ex-Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer > [Mueller probe: Manafort hit with new charges after Gates pleads guilty](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-trump-campaign-aide-rick-gates-set-plead-guilty-n849256) That is a very good write-up and I would encourage everyone to read it; there’s a lot of details laid out. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2750 "2018-02-24T11:41:51Z")
Mueller is relentless, methodical and committed to his view of America as a Marine, Public Official and Law Man. Trump is going to be Trump - no looking back, no self-reflection, pure Id and counter punching. Could the two be more opposite? What is this, fucking Shakespeare? I don’t want to live in Richard III. Or High Noon. Mueller, per above, is NOT political - heck, he’s a lifelong conservative and Republican. But he takes on cases to make those cases, in service to his duty and America. If he thinks Trump is dirty, he wants to take him down. He has to know that the only way any action could be taken on any indictments he hands down towards Trump would be if Dems have more power. So he has to be timing his findings to happen based on what is going on in the election. So this is Shakespearean Chess. Chilling. Since Trump is the Great Distractor, who wants to guess what he would do to take attention away from the Russia investigation? Start a war? Launch a missile? Anyone believe those are not on the table? :shudder: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2751 "2018-02-24T13:50:14Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > So this is Shakespearean Chess. Chilling. Since Trump is the Great Distractor, who wants to guess what he would do to take attention away from the Russia investigation? Start a war? Launch a missile? Anyone believe those are not on the table? :shudder: Oh, they’re on the table. [He’s said we may have to move to Phase 2 with N. Korea](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-north-korea-sanctions-don-194400632.html), which (and I want you to notice that this is a direct quote from the president) “may be very, very unfortunate for the world.” ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2752 "2018-02-24T17:36:08Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The lie that Gates was indicted for involves a dinner meeting at which Ukraine was discussed. The meeting was with a lobbyist and Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. Rohrabacher has been filthy as pig shit for years. No surprises if that guy ends up indicted as well. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2753 "2018-02-24T19:44:29Z")
From last year: Kevin McCarthy: “There’s two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump.” > **[California politics updates: Gov. Brown blasts Trump on climate change, state...](https://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-201705-htmlstory.html#house-majority-leader-kevin-mccarthy-in-2016-theres-two-people-i-think-putin-pays-rohrabacher-and-trump)** > > This is Essential Politics, our daily look at California political and government news. Here's what we're watching right now: Gov. Jerry Brown told the Times Wednesday that a decision by President Trump to withdraw from the Paris Accord on climate... ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2754 "2018-02-26T10:25:15Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Wonder if Mueller has talked to _her_ yet? Can he? My understanding is that the texts were hacked and leaked, which (IANAL but I understand) means that they can’t be used as the basis for a line of enquiry unless any of them were voluntarily released by either of the parties involved or they were otherwise discovered via a legitimate route. Absent that, what justification would he have to speak to her? ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2755 "2018-02-26T10:53:34Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Can he? My understanding is that the texts were hacked and leaked, which (IANAL but I understand) means that they can’t be used as the basis for a line of enquiry unless any of them were voluntarily released by either of the parties involved or they were otherwise discovered via a legitimate route. Absent that, what justification would he have to speak to her? Asking nicely? 😃 Doesn’t sound like she’s a fan of her dad’s behavior, that’s for sure. I don’t suppose he can compel her, but I don’t think he’s prohibited from calling her up after reading one of those articles, and asking if she’d like to talk. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2756 "2018-02-26T10:57:50Z")
You’d be amazed at how much information investigators can get just by asking for it. Not everything needs to be subpoenaed. (On a side note, I can’t believe I just spelled “subpoenaed” correctly on the first try. Do I get into law school now?) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2757 "2018-02-26T16:25:47Z")
Getting Manafort to flip will not be easy. For one he is 68. Even if he cooperates, he may still die in prison with all the stuff he has done. I can understand why Gates would flip, he has young kids and another 40 years of life. Manafort will probably be dead in 15 years and even if he flips he may spend the next 5-10 in prison. For another, he probably has to worry about Russian oligarchs or Putin coming after him or his family if he flips. Is Mueller using extradition to the Ukraine as leverage on Manafort? I hope so. I guess I’m confused as to why Manafort is to integral to all this. Why is Mueller trying so hard to flip him? Isn’t Gates going to provide the same info? ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2758 "2018-02-26T16:40:46Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I guess I’m confused as to why Manafort is to integral to all this. Why is Mueller trying so hard to flip him? Isn’t Gates going to provide the same info? You would think. But inconsistencies in their stories might be leaving big holes somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2759 "2018-02-26T16:46:13Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Getting Manafort to flip will not be easy. > > For one he is 68. Even if he cooperates, he may still die in prison with all the stuff he has done. I can understand why Gates would flip, he has young kids and another 40 years of life. Manafort will probably be dead in 15 years and even if he flips he may spend the next 5-10 in prison. > > For another, he probably has to worry about Russian oligarchs or Putin coming after him or his family if he flips. Another key difference may be that Manafort has more money for legal fees. It’s been reported that among the primary motivations Gates had to cop a plea is that he simply didn’t have the (seven figure) amount of cash a legal defense would cost. (Ditto for Flynn.) Manafort seems to be financially stressed as well, which seems to be the source of some of his legal problems. But when it comes to affording a seven figure legal defense, there’s a big difference between a guy whose problems are living high on the hog and needing to mortgage some of his many multi-million dollar properties, and a guy whose entire lifestyle is on a much lower scale. > [@](#): > > I guess I’m confused as to why Manafort is to integral to all this. Why is Mueller trying so hard to flip him? Why such confidence that Mueller is “trying so hard to flip him”? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2760 "2018-02-26T23:00:55Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Rohrabacher has been filthy as pig shit for years. No surprises if that guy ends up indicted as well. I honestly believe he DESERVES to be indicted. He is referred to as “Putin’s favorite…” ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/2761 "2018-02-26T23:50:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why such confidence that Mueller is “trying so hard to flip him”? Not to speak for **Wesley Clark** but maybe others who have this feeling is that it seems to be based on the assumption that Mueller’s primary focus is aimed at Russians and Trump himself, with his campaign and administration to a lesser degree. Mueller is certainly turning up the pressure on Manafort with the additional charges and now the likely testimony of Gates in Mueller’s case-in-chief. But it’s equally possible that this is to try and build the strongest case against Manafort to ensure a conviction and not to try and flip him into providing information or testimony against Trump or his inner circle. Due to Trump’s limited computer usage outside of his phone and Twitter and his distaste for reading (including, presumably, any kind of susbstantive emails), he seems to be largely insulated from a direct paper trail showing any personal knowledge about Russian activities, offers of help, or any indirect coordination. Therefore, given Manafort’s stated determination to go to trial, any focus on Trump directly will probably be confined to any financial wrongdoing or obstruction of justice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=137) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=139)