# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/281 "2017-10-31T18:18:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But I think it’s not really a matter of being in the loop. It’s a matter of how much authority the guy had, such that you can assume that his opinion reflects that of the campaign as a whole. The level of his authority within the campaign really isn’t particularly important. The devil is going to be in the details. Who was he communicating with? What did he say and do? To what extent was he connected with people who were higher up? And, even if he had little or no power within the campaign, what might he know about the people who were in positions of authority, and their dealings? I don’t think that Mueller start with Papadopoulos because he believed that he was the guy calling the shots. As one pundit noted on one of the cable news shows this morning, the guys who broke into the Watergate didn’t have any real authority in the Nixon campaign either. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/282 "2017-10-31T18:23:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m actually surprised that the Trump administration along with the Trump News Network (aka Fox News) has not already deemed GP an “unperson” and airbrushed him out of any photographs. I’m sure that they could get tips from the Russians on how to do this. That’s ridiculous. They’d use Photoshop. Most likely pirated. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/283 "2017-10-31T18:24:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The level of his authority within the campaign really isn’t particularly important. The devil is going to be in the details. Who was he communicating with? What did he say and do? To what extent was he connected with people who were higher up? And, even if he had little or no power within the campaign, what might he know about the people who were in positions of authority, and their dealings? I don’t think that Mueller start with Papadopoulos because he believed that he was the guy calling the shots. On the whole, I agree with this. But what it amounts to is saying that additional facts could emerge incriminating the more important people. Absolutely. What the “GP was a relative nobody” argument is about is that what’s emerged until now is not about a guy with significant authority. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/284 "2017-10-31T18:32:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > On the whole, I agree with this. But what it amounts to is saying that additional facts could emerge incriminating the more important people. Absolutely. What the “GP was a relative nobody” argument is about is that what’s emerged until now is not about a guy with significant authority. I’m not sure I understand your point. It’s not about whether GP had authority, but rather, permission. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/285 "2017-10-31T18:42:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > On the whole, I agree with this. But what it amounts to is saying that additional facts could emerge incriminating the more important people. Absolutely. What the “GP was a relative nobody” argument is about is that what’s emerged until now is not about a guy with significant authority. His authority-level is irrelevant. He’s the messenger. He’s the go-between. He’s the guy who talks to everyone and tries to set up meetings and schedule sit-downs. If Papdopulous is really just the guy who sat at the table with the important guys and poured their coffee - he’s a serious witness. And we know from his indictment that he’s been acting as a “pro-active” witness for the last couple months. He’s been actively gathering information from the important guys at the table. It doesn’t matter what Papadopoulos’ job title in the administration was. It matters which meetings he attended and what was discussed in his hearing. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/286 "2017-10-31T18:44:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Fotheringay-Phipps** : > > That kind of proves my point. If a guy is best known for being scoffed at over using “model UN” on his resume that’s not a guy with a major role. What about the guy best known for being a reality TV host? Is that a guy with a major role? In any competently-run campaign, Papadopoulos would have been a minor player. But what does that have to do with Trump? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/287 "2017-10-31T18:48:29Z")
Trump is tweeting again. Papa is a “known liar” apparently. > **[Trump attacks 'liar' ex-campaign aide Papadopoulos after guilty plea](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-calls-papadopolous-low-level-volunteer-proven-liar-131438636.html)** > > The president continues to try to distance himself from federal charges brought by special counsel Robert Mueller against three of his campaign officials, including former adviser George Papadopoulos, who is now cooperating with the FBI. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/288 "2017-10-31T18:48:34Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Papadopolous’s supervisor, apparently Page, encouraged Papadopolous’s efforts. And there was subsequently a meeting with Russians promising derogatory information about Clinton, at which Manafort, Kushner, and Trump Jr. were present. This looks to me like both Papadopolous and Manafort were in favor of increased contact with the Russians, for the purpose of benefiting from information the Russians had gathered illegally. “Campaign supervisor” is Sam Clovis. This WaPo article runs down who is who, when it is known. > **[Who’s who in the George Papadopoulos court documents](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whos-who-in-the-george-papadopoulos-court-documents/2017/10/30/e131158c-bdb3-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html)** > > The Post has identified several of the unnamed individuals who were in contact with the Trump campaign adviser. “The Campaign Supervisor”: Trump campaign national co-chairman Sam Clovis “High-Ranking Campaign Official”: Campaign manager Corey Lewandowski “Another high-ranking campaign official”: Campaign chairman Paul Manafort “Another campaign official”: Manafort deputy Rick Gates “Senior Policy Advisor”: Unknown “The Professor”: Joseph Mifsud, director of the London Academy of Diplomacy “The Female Russian National”: Unknown “A Russian National Connected to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs”: Ivan Timofeev ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/289 "2017-10-31T18:49:39Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Trump is tweeting again. Papa is a “known liar” apparently. > > [Trump attacks 'liar' ex-campaign aide Papadopoulos](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-calls-papadopolous-low-level-volunteer-proven-liar-131438636.html) He of course fails to mention that what Papa lied about was NOT attempting to collude w/ Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/290 "2017-10-31T18:50:16Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > “Campaign supervisor” is Sam Clovis. > > This WaPo article runs down who is who, when it is known. > > [Who’s who in the George Papadopoulos court documents - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/whos-who-in-the-george-papadopoulos-court-documents/2017/10/30/e131158c-bdb3-11e7-97d9-bdab5a0ab381_story.html) > > “The Campaign Supervisor”: Trump campaign national co-chairman Sam Clovis > “High-Ranking Campaign Official”: Campaign manager Corey Lewandowski > “Another high-ranking campaign official”: Campaign chairman Paul Manafort > “Another campaign official”: Manafort deputy Rick Gates > “Senior Policy Advisor”: Unknown > “The Professor”: Joseph Mifsud, director of the London Academy of Diplomacy > “The Female Russian National”: Unknown > “A Russian National Connected to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs”: Ivan Timofeev Ah, cool. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/291 "2017-10-31T18:50:55Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’m not sure I understand your point. It’s not about whether GP had authority, but rather, permission. And also, knowledge about what others in higher up positions \*\*with \*\*authority did, and who they communicated with. As has been pointed out (and is rather obvious), Mueller is following the playbook; Get the small fish, wring the information out of them and then move on to the inner circles. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/292 "2017-10-31T18:52:25Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > His authority-level is irrelevant. He’s the messenger. He’s the go-between. He’s the guy who talks to everyone and tries to set up meetings and schedule sit-downs. > > If Papdopulous is really just the guy who sat at the table with the important guys and poured their coffee - he’s a serious witness. > > And we know from his indictment that he’s been acting as a “pro-active” witness for the last couple months. He’s been actively gathering information from the important guys at the table. > > It doesn’t matter what Papadopoulos’ job title in the administration was. It matters which meetings he attended and what was discussed in his hearing. Right. But at this point we don’t know any of that. What I’m discussing is how incriminating what’s already known is. What might become known at some point in the future is speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/293 "2017-10-31T18:54:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*hajario \*\* Trump is tweeting again. Papa is a “known liar” apparently. > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-cal...131438636.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-cal...131438636.html) > [@GrandWino](#): > > He of course fails to mention that what Papa lied about was NOT attempting to collude w/ Russia. You’ve gotta love the balls behind this. A guy is arrested for lying to the FBI about stuff that would have been damaging to Trump. Trump then throws him under the bus, and says “See! They guy is a liar, and even the FBI agrees with me! That proves I’m innocent!” It’s like the kid who kills his parents, and then begs the court for leniency because he’s an orphan. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/294 "2017-10-31T19:04:48Z")
“Billy, did your brother take a cookie from the jar?” “Ummm… _noooo._” “Billy, I know you’re lying to protect him. Do you want to be grounded?” “Okay! Fine! Yes! I saw him steal a cookie right after school!” “Donnie, what do you have to say for yourself?” “How can you believe him! You already know he’s a liar!” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/295 "2017-10-31T19:07:02Z")
I don’t think much of Trump or his tweet(s), but I don’t get that particular counterargument. It’s not like GP was falling on his sword for the Trumpians. He was trying to exonerate himself. (And especially if he later wore a wire as is being widely speculated, I don’t see Trump owing him anything.) [OTOH, I also don’t know what Trump might be saying either. AFAICT, the incriminating facts that GP pleaded to are mostly documented in emails, and very little is resting on his veracity at this point. But in general, I’m not inclined to pay attention to Trump tweets.] ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/296 "2017-10-31T19:08:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Right. But at this point we don’t know any of that. What I’m discussing is how incriminating what’s already known is. What might become known at some point in the future is speculation. What’s known right now is that some three months ago, Mueller busted a low level staffer who had knowledge of Russian involvement with the Trump campaign. Mueller kept this arrest secret, and used this staffer as a “Proactive Cooperator” for the past three months. We know that Mueller has chosen this moment to reveal that he has used this staffer. So sure. Maybe it’s all bluff. Maybe Mueller has nothing, and this whole investigation ends now. But that’s not very likely, is it? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/297 "2017-10-31T19:20:22Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > “How can you believe him! You already know he’s a liar!” My new earworm: Fred Astaire in _Royal Wedding_ with “How could you believe me when I said I loved you when you know I’ve been a liar all my life?” > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > And especially if he later wore a wire as is being widely speculated, I don’t see Trump owing him anything. It wouldn’t matter if he did. When did Trump ever acknowledge owing anybody else anything? > [@](#): > > OTOH, I also don’t know what Trump might be saying either. I don’t know either, but I’m sure it’s loud and profane, and we’ll find out in tonight’s edition of Toilet Tweets. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/298 "2017-10-31T19:22:36Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > “Billy, did your brother take a cookie from the jar?” > > “Ummm… _noooo._” > > “Billy, I know you’re lying to protect him. Do you want to be grounded?” > > “Okay! Fine! Yes! I saw him steal a cookie right after school!” > > “Donnie, what do you have to say for yourself?” > > “How can you believe him! You already know he’s a liar!” F-P: Well did anybody actually SEE the cookie get stolen? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/299 "2017-10-31T20:08:27Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > F-P: Well did anybody actually SEE the cookie get stolen? \ ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/300 "2017-10-31T20:09:08Z")
And where was Hillary when it went missing? I think someone should investigate that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=16)