# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 154
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3062 "2018-03-09T18:41:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I highly doubt if that’s true. > > Perhaps you can give an example of someone prosecuted for something that was his responsibility to know but that he didn’t. Ken Lay. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3063 "2018-03-09T18:44:56Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Fortunately, “fucking moron” never flies as a defense to the charges that are likely to be laid against him. He won’t be found not guilty just because he carries out his crimes inartfully. I don’t know if you think that is countering something I have said or if you are agreeing with me. As for “inartfully,” I think it’s possible he had no idea anyone was doing anything wrong with Russia because he is too arrogant, too stupid, and too self-absorbed. It’s entirely possible to be absolved of crimes because you didn’t know about them if you can put up the plausible defense that you didn’t know about them. I think he is a crook in his business dealings and likely those dealings include the Russians. I think he may be a handy tool for the Russians otherwise, without necessarily being aware of it, just as he’s unaware of basically everything else on the planet. And I think he would be behaving the same now either way. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3064 "2018-03-09T18:52:14Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Ken Lay. Incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3065 "2018-03-09T18:55:24Z")
There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3066 "2018-03-09T19:04:39Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know. All of these threads and I think some are still overestimating the level at which he is operating. Complete seat of the pants, knee-jerk, unthinking, instinctive reaction. That’s what he does. In general, he’s not contemplating things, thinking them through, planning, plotting, etc. Does anyone think it would be difficult to hide something from Trump if you wanted to? Does anyone in this thread actually think that would be the slightest struggle, to hide something you didn’t want him to know? Someone was up to some bad shit. For me, whether Trump himself was at the center of that or peripheral to it as people thought to use his power for their own ends is pretty immaterial. I’m happy for a trial to figure that out (won’t likely come to that, but I can dream). ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3067 "2018-03-09T19:08:20Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > The thing I find most worrisome is that I don’t have a sense now of what’s plausible and what isn’t. Articles this week were talking about all the people who have mysteriously died (related to Russia, not Trump specifically), and I thought “I can’t tell if this is reality or Vince Foster-esque nuttiness or something in between.” My bullshit filters have been completely swamped. Yes, Trump’s evil plan is working. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3068 "2018-03-09T19:10:51Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > You know, I can still easily believe that Trump is actually innocent of intentionally colluding. He’s a profoundly silly man, and people with any manipulation skills could easily take advantage of his flaws. > [@SteveG1](#): > > There has just been TOO MUCH for him to not be aware. He knew. And then he did everything he could to distract, divert, cover up, and obstruct. He is guilty as fuck and there was just too much going on for him to NOT know. I do wonder if he did know that there was collusion going on, but was just unaware that it was illegal to do so. That certainly seems to be Jr.'s position, when he says he did nothing illegal, then tweets out the emails incriminating him. They know nothing about politics or campaigning, they just know that it’s a dirty game, so they may have taken any advantage offered them, not realizing that they were committing crimes in the process. This is no excuse, of course. Just because I don’t know that bank robbery is illegal doesn’t mean that I get off. If you are running for an office, it is your responsibility to know the laws pertaining to your activity. Now that they realize how many laws that they broke, they are ineptly trying to cover them up, throw others under the bus, and make excuses for everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3069 "2018-03-09T19:17:53Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I don’t know if you think that is countering something I have said or if you are agreeing with me. > > As for “inartfully,” I think it’s possible he had no idea anyone was doing anything wrong with Russia because he is too arrogant, too stupid, and too self-absorbed. It’s entirely possible to be absolved of crimes because you didn’t know about them if you can put up the plausible defense that you didn’t know about them. > > I think he is a crook in his business dealings and likely those dealings include the Russians. I think he may be a handy tool for the Russians otherwise, without necessarily being aware of it, just as he’s unaware of basically everything else on the planet. And I think he would be behaving the same now either way. I am disagreeing with you. The issue isn’t ignorance, it is intent. That’s the legal standard. Even if Trump didn’t have a complete grasp that what he was doing meant he was working on behalf of the Russians, it will not save him from suffering the consequences if it can be proved he acted with intent to conspire or obstruct. And I’m sorry, but there is nothing complicated about Trump’s intent to subvert our election process if it can be proved that he was aware of the Trump Tower meeting and its true purpose – which is rather hard to deny, given some of the language in the email to Don Jr.: “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.” That is plain language, the intent of which is clear. There is a basic tenet of the law, referred to as the Reasonable Person Standard, most frequently employed in civil cases having to do with standards for medical practice, e.g., but applicable in some criminal circumstances as well: > [@](#): > > As a legal fiction,[3] the “reasonable person” is not an average person or a typical person, leading to great difficulties in applying the concept in some criminal cases, especially in regards to the partial defence of provocation.[7] **The standard also holds that each person owes a duty to behave as a reasonable person would under the same or similar circumstances.** [8][9] While the specific circumstances of each case will require varying kinds of conduct and degrees of care, the reasonable person standard undergoes no variation itself.[10][11] The “reasonable person” construct can be found applied in many areas of the law. The standard performs a crucial role in determining negligence in both criminal law—that is, criminal negligence—and tort law. (Emphasis mine.) [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person) IANAL and would not claim to understand every nuance of the Reasonable Person Standard, but it’s not impossible to consider that a such a standard could be applied to the basic knowledge required to carry out one’s duties as President. Let’s start with, “Do nothing that is contrary to the interests of the United States, even if it means putting the interests of the country above your own.” ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3070 "2018-03-09T19:18:41Z")
I want the sweatshirt Whoopie Goldberg was wearing on The View yesterday. In the same script as the logo for Miller Beer, her shirt said, “It’s Mueller Time”. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3071 "2018-03-09T19:19:30Z")
> [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](#): > > Yes, Trump’s evil plan is working. Sadly, it sure is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3072 "2018-03-09T19:24:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I do wonder if he did know that there was collusion going on, but was just unaware that it was illegal to do so. That certainly seems to be Jr.'s position, when he says he did nothing illegal, then tweets out the emails incriminating him. > > They know nothing about politics or campaigning, they just know that it’s a dirty game, so they may have taken any advantage offered them, not realizing that they were committing crimes in the process. > > This is no excuse, of course. Just because I don’t know that bank robbery is illegal doesn’t mean that I get off. If you are running for an office, it is your responsibility to know the laws pertaining to your activity. > > Now that they realize how many laws that they broke, they are ineptly trying to cover them up, throw others under the bus, and make excuses for everything else. I find that pretty plausible. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3073 "2018-03-09T19:30:04Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I want the sweatshirt Whoopie Goldberg was wearing on The View yesterday. In the same script as the logo for Miller Beer, her shirt said, “It’s Mueller Time”. I didn’t see the show so don’t know if this is exactly right, but you can have one: [It’s Mueller Time](https://www.teeshirtpalace.com/products/it-s-mueller-time-robert-mueller-logo-tie-dye-hoodie?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItqma5Pzf2QIVybbACh1RVQsJEAQYASABEgKodfD_BwE) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3074 "2018-03-09T19:30:38Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I am disagreeing with you. The issue isn’t ignorance, it is intent. That’s the legal standard. Even if Trump didn’t have a complete grasp that what he was doing meant he was working on behalf of the Russians, it will not save him from suffering the consequences if it can be proved he acted with intent to conspire or obstruct. I do not disagree with you. If it can be proven he acted with intent to do X, then ignorance will not save him in a trial (if it comes to that, which it likely won’t). I have not claimed otherwise. And I think he has obstructed the investigation, quite intentionally. I just do not assume that he obstructed it because he himself was originally guilty of an underlying crime involving collusion of some sort with Russia surrounding the 2016 presidential election. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3075 "2018-03-09T19:31:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Incorrect. [Wrong!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU) > [@](#): > > [Judge Lets Enron Jurors Consider If Defendants Turned a Blind Eye](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/10/AR2006051002124.html) > > Former Enron Corp. executives Jeffrey K. Skilling and Kenneth L. Lay say they held their heads high when they led the energy company. But _jurors will be allowed to consider whether they intentionally buried their heads in the sand to avoid blame_ for fraud. > > U.S. District Judge Simeon T. Lake III this week granted the government’s bid for a controversial jury instruction known as “deliberate indifference” or “willful blindness.” The language _allows jurors to consider whether Skilling and Lay averted their eyes from fraud within Enron’s ranks to deny responsibility_ for it later… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3076 "2018-03-09T19:34:51Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [Wrong!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU) Operative word there is “intentionally”. The claim in this thread, and which I challenged, was that Trump could be criminally liable because “_it was his responsibility to know, and failing to act on that responsibility can be a crime_”. That’s not what Lay was charged with. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3077 "2018-03-09T19:36:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Incorrect. Naw, correct. But I’m gonna play my F-P card by declaring I am not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you. But to answer your question, how about: > **[How People Are Prosecuted For Breaking Laws They Don’t Know Exist](https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/21916)** > > Legislature considering criminal intent reform bills > **[Possession of stolen goods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods)** > > Possession of stolen goods is a crime in which an individual has bought, been given, or acquired stolen goods. > In many jurisdictions, if an individual has accepted possession of goods (or property) and knew they were stolen, then the individual may be charged with a crime, depending on the value of the stolen goods, and the goods are returned to the original owner. If the individual did not know the goods were stolen, then the goods are returned to the owner and the individual is not prosecute... This site is sufficiently right-wing for you: [What Happens When You Break a Law You Didn't Know About](http://dailysignal.com/2014/01/20/happens-break-law-didnt-know/) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3078 "2018-03-09T19:45:58Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Naw, correct. But I’m not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you. That works for me. I’m not interested in discussing anything at all with you, mainly because you’re an idiot, as exemplified by this very post. More below. > [@](#): > > But to answer your question, how about: > > [How People Are Prosecuted For Breaking Laws They Don’t Know Exist – Michigan Capitol Confidential](https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/21916) > > [Possession of stolen goods - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods) > > This site is sufficiently right-wing for you: [What Happens When You Break a Law You Didn't Know About](http://dailysignal.com/2014/01/20/happens-break-law-didnt-know/) This is an example of the type of confused “thinking” that would make any attempt to discuss anything with you a waste of time. In this case, you’re confusing two very different issues. [ol] [li]You personally break the law via your own actions, but are not aware that what you’re doing is a crime. (This is what your cites are about - at least your first and third; your second cite has no apparent connection at all.)[/li][li]You don’t personally break the law; people who work for you break the law and you should have been aware that they were doing this. (This is what’s being discussed here.)[/li][/ol] True, both of these situations share the aspect of “not being aware” of something, which is apparently what confused you. But if you’re confused by something as simple as that - and this is far from the first time for you - there’s not much hope of any meaningful discussion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3079 "2018-03-09T19:49:29Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Naw, correct. But I’m gonna play my F-P card by declaring I am not interested in taking the time to properly discuss the Enron debacle with you. > > But to answer your question, how about: > > [How People Are Prosecuted For Breaking Laws They Don’t Know Exist – Michigan Capitol Confidential](https://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/21916) > > [Possession of stolen goods - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_of_stolen_goods) > > This site is sufficiently right-wing for you: [What Happens When You Break a Law You Didn't Know About](http://dailysignal.com/2014/01/20/happens-break-law-didnt-know/) Just to be clear, I’ll reiterate: I have not claimed, nor would I, that ignorance of the law is a defense, generally. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3080 "2018-03-09T20:02:23Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I didn’t see the show so don’t know if this is exactly right, but you can have one: [It’s Mueller Time](https://www.teeshirtpalace.com/products/it-s-mueller-time-robert-mueller-logo-tie-dye-hoodie?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItqma5Pzf2QIVybbACh1RVQsJEAQYASABEgKodfD_BwE) That’s it. Awesome. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3081 "2018-03-09T22:23:44Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > All of these threads and I think some are still overestimating the level at which he is operating. Complete seat of the pants, knee-jerk, unthinking, instinctive reaction. That’s what he does. In general, he’s not contemplating things, thinking them through, planning, plotting, etc. > > Does anyone think it would be difficult to hide something from Trump if you wanted to? Does anyone in this thread actually think that would be the slightest struggle, to hide something you didn’t want him to know? > > Someone was up to some bad shit. For me, whether Trump himself was at the center of that or peripheral to it as people thought to use his power for their own ends is pretty immaterial. I’m happy for a trial to figure that out (won’t likely come to that, but I can dream). As I said already… far too much was going on, and far too much of it was constant. Even a brain dead muskrat would notice something - anything. And Trump with his big mouth had “a way” of saying things that would seem to indicate he did know (“I love WikiLeaks” for just one example). And then the whole “I fired Comey over the Russia thing”. Damn right he knew. I fully expect as a last resort he WILL try to claim ignorance (or the “too stupid to do it” defense - which is already being floated). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=153) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=155)