# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 178
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3542 "2018-03-28T20:38:31Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > 1. Mueller is either complicit in the deception or allows himself to be deceived, and does not rely on any supporting evidence other than the witness’s say-so, out of his zeal to prosecute Trump. There is always supporting evidence, and there’s supporting evidence for virtually everything. But much of what counts as “supporting evidence” has considerable ambiguity to it (which is precisely why prosecutors are willing to cut defendants enormous slack if they testify alongside the supporting evidence). It’s all about how you interpret the supporting evidence and the totality of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3543 "2018-03-29T10:12:18Z")
Yet another smear attack on Mueller’s credibility, I see. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3544 "2018-03-29T11:41:41Z")
I think we’re about to see a coordinated political attack on Bob Mueller and his investigation. > **[Trump attack unleashes oppo against Mueller](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/28/trump-mueller-russia-probe-488695)** > > "It looks like the beginnings of a campaign," said a source familiar with Trump's legal strategy. I’ve feared this could, and would happen, and as Mueller gets closer to Trump’s financial dealings and as he closes in on direct links to Russian intelligence, I think it’s inevitable that there will be attempts to discredit and shut down the investigation. And it’s not just Trump who has an interest in doing this either. Clearly, we’ve seen now with the recent Cambridge Analytica revelations, that there are conservative, plutocratic benefactors who are themselves going to be personally exposed as having ties to Putin’s Russia. I also suspect that individual Republican politicians and activists will also be identified and named. There’s a collective interest in shuttering the investigation. The only disagreement among Republicans is how best to do it. The more established Republicans on the Hill are worried Trump will fire Mueller and cause a political firestorm; they’d rather discredit Mueller themselves using their congressional powers to investigate and discredit the investigators, and to use their propaganda machine. But make no mistake: the GOP is all in on shutting down the investigation and covering up what might be the grossest act of treason in American history. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3545 "2018-03-29T11:57:53Z")
Good lord. People will rise up. I am NOT saying that to advocate it - I can’t feel good about deadly riots - but these stakes are even higher than important, worthy causes have been driving huge turnouts and tense situations already. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3546 "2018-03-29T12:06:22Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Good lord. People will rise up. I am NOT saying that to advocate it - I can’t feel good about deadly riots - but these stakes are even higher than important, worthy causes have been driving huge turnouts and tense situations already. David Simon had this to say on the subject last June: > [@David Simon on Twitter](#): > > If Donald Trump fires Robert Mueller and is allowed to do so, pick up a goddamn brick. That’s all that’s left to you. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3547 "2018-03-29T12:46:50Z")
Yep. That’s it. Chilling. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3548 "2018-03-29T12:53:21Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Really? > > [Virginia House of Delegates election, 2017](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_House_of_Delegates_election,_2017) > > Dems won statewide by almost 10 points (53.17% to 43.76%). That’s a wave. > > Republicans won control of the House of Delegates 51 seats to 49. Some of that is because Democratic voters tend to be highly concentrated. After PA redrew their map to have reasonable looking compact districts, a state that is pretty much 50-50 will still end up +2 or +3 GOP in Congress, because many of the Democratic voters are clustered in the cities. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3549 "2018-03-29T13:18:22Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Good lord. People will rise up. People will rise up from their couches to get some more Funyuns and reset the wireless router. Then they’ll settle back in to go post on Facebook about how Facebook is terrible for society. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3550 "2018-03-29T13:37:25Z")
Yup, no doubt about it, being on the side of the law, instead of the side that’s against law, is a big advantage for Mueller. It’s not an advantage that’s traditionally considered unethical, though. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3551 "2018-03-29T13:46:43Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > People will rise up from their couches to get some more Funyuns and reset the wireless router. Then they’ll settle back in to go post on Facebook about how Facebook is terrible for society. Have you looked around lately? That is _not_ what’s happening. Most obviously: look at the Parkland shooting and the deeply good, aggressive activism spurred by the kids there. Damn near every kid in America is excited to be part of the Voice of Activism. They will make the 60’s look pale in comparison - these kids aren’t hippie outsiders or radicals, and grew up in the age of Startup entrepreneurialism where young people can and are expected now to take the initiative and make their own opportunities. They are everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3552 "2018-03-29T13:59:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yup, no doubt about it, being on the side of the law, instead of the side that’s against law, is a big advantage for Mueller. It’s not an advantage that’s traditionally considered unethical, though. Has anyone alleged any unethical behavior by Mueller? I’m not aware of this. Certainly not in this thread, that I can tell. But now that you mention it, many people allege that Mueller Deputy Andrew Weissman went too far with this type of witness intimidation in his role as head of the Enron Task Force. In that case, he named 114 potential witnesses as unindicted co-conspirators, which meant that these people were effectively forestalled from testifying due to their legal jeopardy. (A pretty high number of convictions in that case were eventually overturned, though not for this reason AFAICT.) ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3553 "2018-03-29T14:19:51Z")
This story is a week or so old, but I found it interesting. I’ve posted before about how the big league real estate and finance industries are all a dirty. Everybody breaks the rules and the law and, if they get caught, the system allows them to fix their mistakes without penalty. I always held up the Trump Soho fraud case as a prime example of this. The Trump children, acting as employees of the Trump Organization, attempted to defraud the buyers of these condos ( which weren’t really condos, but a hybrid that combined the worst elements of owning a condo and owning a hotel room, but that’s not relevant to the particular fraud.) They were going to be criminally prosecuted but they got around it by giving everyone that complained their money back on the condition that they not cooperate with prosecutors. Throw in a campaign contribution to the DA and problem solved! Now that every Kushner transaction is under a microscope- he’s been busted again. And this one happened in my neighborhood! > **[AP Exclusive: Kushner Cos. filed false NYC housing paperwork](https://apnews.com/002703e70347481cb993027d04f543cc)** > > NEW YORK (AP) — When the Kushner Cos. bought three apartment buildings in a gentrifying neighborhood of Queens in 2015, most of the tenants were protected by special rules that prevent developers from pushing them out, raising rents and turning a... Now the Kushner Company response is interesting, which is that it outsources the preparation of these documents (plausible deniability?) and that “if mistakes or violations are identified, corrective action is taken immediately” . And this was a BIG mistake. The 3 buildings had 94 rent regulated tenants but ( due to a typo, I’m sure ). - the number was entered as zero. And the Kushner Companies made the EXACT SAME TYPO on every one of 80 documents filed between 2013 and 2016! This business is so filthy and I’m only on the fringes of it - I purchased an NY apartment once and I’m on the board of my building. When I purchased my apartment I used a mortgage broker who tried to commit all levels of fraud in the application and disclosure. I showed the papers to a loan officer at Citibank and he took me through it step by step, showing me how each form would’ve been altered after I signed it to bring everything in line ( a lot of forms with multiple checkboxes) . And he kind of had to talk me down from calling the cops, DA and AG by telling me how commonplace it was. Or the time I caught a broker falsifying financials for a rental tenant ( and I caught them because the stuff the tenant submitted directly was honest and I caught the discrepancies).And the property manager had to talk me down “ they were just looking out for their client. They wanted them to get the apartment.” And I went ballistic on my management company because I frequently have to sign papers as an officer of the corporation. And one time I read them and said… “wait, this has to be notarized” - at which point they told me they had a notary that came in once a week and stamped ( falsified) everything. I resigned as an officer after that one, although I still serve as a board member. Sorry for the digression, this stuff pisses me off. You’d think we’d have learned something after 2008. . But if this latest Kushner malfeasance sounds familiar - it’s the security clearance applications all over again. Just say you have no foreign contacts. And every time that proven to be a lie, just say “ Oops” and amend the paperwork. That way you don’t accidentally disclose a contact that you may not have had to disclose. Works better in New York than it does in Washington, I guess. The upshot is that this actually gives me hope. Because it won’t take much prodding into Trump/ Kushner businesses to turn up all sorts of wrongdoing because NY real estate is so systematically corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3554 "2018-03-29T14:26:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Has anyone alleged any unethical behavior by Mueller? I’m not aware of this. Certainly not in this thread, that I can tell. > > But now that you mention it, many people allege that Mueller Deputy Andrew Weissman went too far with this type of witness intimidation in his role as head of the Enron Task Force. In that case, he named 114 potential witnesses as unindicted co-conspirators, which meant that these people were effectively forestalled from testifying due to their legal jeopardy. (A pretty high number of convictions in that case were eventually overturned, though not for this reason AFAICT.) Are some of these “many people” the “some people” who are always saying things? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3555 "2018-03-29T14:28:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Has anyone alleged any unethical behavior by Mueller? I’m not aware of this. Certainly not in this thread, that I can tell. An odd statement from someone who could post this: > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Mueller has the complete ability to threaten life-altering consequence to potential witnesses who don’t testify to what he thinks happened, which is exactly what he’s been doing, to great acclaim. Or this: > [@](#): > > But now that you mention it, many people allege that Mueller Deputy Andrew Weissman went too far “People are saying”, huh? That’s a cite? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3556 "2018-03-29T14:36:17Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Have you looked around lately? That is _not_ what’s happening. > > Most obviously: look at the Parkland shooting and the deeply good, aggressive activism spurred by the kids there. Damn near every kid in America is excited to be part of the Voice of Activism. They will make the 60’s look pale in comparison - these kids aren’t hippie outsiders or radicals, and grew up in the age of Startup entrepreneurialism where young people can and are expected now to take the initiative and make their own opportunities. They are everyone. The Parkland shooting was an emotional issue. I’m not sure that the firing of Mueller would be viewed in the same light or produce the same reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3557 "2018-03-29T14:36:47Z")
FYI, so many threads, I actually intended to drop post #3552 in the Clusterfuck thread but I don’t think it’s terribly off point here. It’s really more about the inability of the Kushner and Trump Companies to withstand the scrutiny they’re getting in general- not about the Mueller stuff so much. Although that’s where he’ll get Trump. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3558 "2018-03-29T14:41:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The Parkland shooting was an emotional issue. I’m not sure that the firing of Mueller would be viewed in the same light or produce the same reaction. You want emotional? Have you spoken with a woman, LGBTQ person or person of color lately about Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3559 "2018-03-29T14:46:51Z")
[The Complete Humiliation Of The Enron Task Force](http://www.businessinsider.com/the-complete-and-utter-humiliation-of-the-enron-task-force-2009-10) > [@](#): > > **Witness Intimidation** > > In addition to withholding evidence, there are several instances of intimidation used by Enron prosecutors. Scott Yeager says he was told by prosecutors that they knew he was a small fry, but that they’d go hard against him if he didn’t turn on his colleagues. Jamie Olis said the same thing. > > And there’s more… > > Tom Kirkendall: The witness intimidation issue has been festering throughout both of the prior Enron-related criminal trials. It first arose in connection with the trial of the Nigerian Barge case in which the Task Force effectively suppressed exculpatory testimony for the defendants in that case by fingering as unindicted co-conspirators dozens of former Enron and Merrill Lynch executives who were involved in the transaction that was the basis of the prosecution. Every one of the unindicted co-conspirators declined to testify in the Nigerian Barge trial on the basis of their Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination. Consequently, four Merrill Lynch executives are serving prison sentences without having had the opportunity to present substantial amounts of exculpatory testimony and related evidence to the jury. > > Then, as noted in this earlier post, the witness intimidation issue boiled over in public during the trial of the Enron Broadband case when former Enron Broadband engineer Lawrence Ciscon dramatically testified that Enron Task Force prosecutors had repeatedly threatened him and had fingered him as a target of an indictment in attempting to dissuade him from testifying on behalf of the five Enron Broadband defendants. That dramatic testimony came on the heels of the Task Force eliciting false testimony from former Enron Broadband co-CEO Ken Rice during that trial, which was then followed by the Task Force threatening another witness in connection with her testimony regarding Rice’s false testimony. As noted in this post, The Enron Broadband jury ultimately acquitted the defendants on some of the charges and could not reach a decision on the balance of the charges, resulting in re-trials of the defendants next year. > > The Task Force then deployed the same tactic earlier in the Lay-Skilling-Causey case by taking the extraordinary step of naming 114 unindicted co-conspirators, which they have subsequently “reduced” to a number just under 100. That tactic – coupled with the Task Force’s control over the communications of any Enron-related defendant who has entered into a plea bargain with the Task Force – has effectively prevented defense counsel for Lay, Skilling and Causey to develop exculpatory testimony on behalf the three men. The Task Force’s control of plea bargainers’ communications and its fingering of the unprecedented number of unindicted co-conspirators prompted prominent law professor Michael Tigar to comment in connection with the Lay-Skilling-Causey motion to dismiss that “this level of silence is not normal” from witnesses and that “I have never seen defendants in a major public trial, especially a white-collar trial, so completely ostracized by witnesses with pertinent information.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3560 "2018-03-29T14:51:49Z")
Enron was guilty too. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/3561 "2018-03-29T15:10:59Z")
[Andrew Weissmann, Mueller’s Legal Pit Bull](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/us/politics/andrew-weissmann-mueller.html) > [@](#): > > Colleagues praised his resourcefulness and legal guile. Opponents accused him of overreach, citing **a series of overturned convictions and higher-court losses**. Among the setbacks for the task force, the Arthur Andersen victory was unanimously overturned by the Supreme Court over a narrow issue involving jury instructions. Long before that outcome, the case had drawn ferocious criticism from members of the business community, who argued that the indictment alone amounted to a death sentence for the firm. > > “It’s pretty clear that Weissmann created a culture in which they presumed that the people they were investigating were guilty,” said Tom Kirkendall, a Houston defense lawyer who represented clients on Enron-related cases. > > This reputation has trailed Mr. Weissmann among some defense lawyers in the years since, propagated most vocally by a lawyer and author, Sidney Powell, whose work has been taken up by Trump allies like Newt Gingrich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=177) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=179)