# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 225
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4482 "2018-05-07T21:49:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well firstly, as Politico said “_the move appeared to be a bid to force Mueller’s team to turn over relevant evidence to the Russian firm and perhaps even to bait prosecutors into an embarrassing dismissal in order to avoid disclosing sensitive information_”. This suggests that it’s realistic to assume that Mueller’s team would drop charges rather than go to trial, which would imply that they never intended to go to trial in the first place. I did read the articles you posted when they came out. And yes, the whole “taking Russia to court” is, in essence, just a PR stunt. I don’t believe that I have seen anyone say anything other than that it is a symbolic gesture - though, that the standards of evidence would have been high enough to support the message being sent. But in no world was it expected that the head of the GRU would come to the US for prosecution and risk of jail time. It’s likely that Mueller didn’t bank on the Russians fighting the charge, and so I could see him deciding to drop the case if there’s no obvious benefit to seeing it through. On the Russian side of things, I doubt that it’s so much a desire to gain access to materials. It’s just trolling the US. See also Veselnitskaya’s changing descriptions of the Trump Tower meeting and her occupation and connections back home. Mueller hasn’t bothered even interviewing her, and with good reason. Likewise, I would recommend ignoring the Russians and their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4483 "2018-05-07T22:05:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “It looks like” strikes me as a bit more confident than mere speculation. You also said “realistic to assume”, which is far beyond speculation. “It looks like” and “may have been” were part of the same sentence, and shouldn’t be read in isolation. “Realistic to assume” is not at all beyond speculation. But for additional clarification, I should also note that “realistic to assume” wasn’t about what’s realistic for us to assume. It was about what was realistic for the Concord lawyers to assume. Since the Concord lawyers didn’t explicitly state that their intention to force Mueller to dismiss the case (and since they are clearly legitimate lawyers, as outlined in the first article), then Politico speculating that this might be their intention suggests that in the opinion of Politico and whatever experts they consulted, this was a realistic goal for those lawyers to have. Otherwise it would make no sense to suggest that this was part of their intention. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4484 "2018-05-07T23:56:53Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “It looks like” and “may have been” were part of the same sentence, and shouldn’t be read in isolation. > > “Realistic to assume” is not at all beyond speculation. But for additional clarification, I should also note that “realistic to assume” wasn’t about what’s realistic for us to assume. It was about what was realistic for the Concord lawyers to assume. Since the Concord lawyers didn’t explicitly state that their intention to force Mueller to dismiss the case (and since they are clearly legitimate lawyers, as outlined in the first article), then Politico speculating that this might be their intention suggests that in the opinion of Politico and whatever experts they consulted, this was a realistic goal for those lawyers to have. Otherwise it would make no sense to suggest that this was part of their intention. Realistic goal is different than realistic to assume that they’d get what they want. I want to lose 20 lbs. For my size (6’ 225 lbs adult man), that’s a realistic goal. Nonetheless, it would not be realistic of me to assume that it will happen. It will take quite a bit of work and willpower. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4485 "2018-05-08T01:37:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Agree on all counts. It’s speculation. (Which is why I said “it looks like … may have been …”) But I think it’s pretty good speculation, and better than 90% of the speculation in a thread which is full of it. YMMV. “My speculation is better than your speculation.” ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4486 "2018-05-08T02:31:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well firstly, as Politico said “_the move appeared to be a bid to force Mueller’s team to turn over relevant evidence to the Russian firm and perhaps even to bait prosecutors into an embarrassing dismissal in order to avoid disclosing sensitive information_”. This suggests that it’s realistic to assume that Mueller’s team would drop charges rather than go to trial, which would imply that they never intended to go to trial in the first place. > > Couple that with the fact that the prosecutors just attempted to delay their own case based on reasoning which was rejected by the judge, implying that they were not prepared to actually go to trial on these charges, which suggests another purpose. > > It’s not like this is completely out there, considering that (again, per Politico) “_when the criminal case was filed, many legal experts predicted it would lie dormant indefinitely and never go to trial because none of the defendants were likely to set foot in the U.S. or in a country from which they could be readily extradited_”. So the case was likely either about a technical sense of obligation or about building public support for their overall efforts. The fact that they don’t seem ready to go forward with it when challenged to do just that suggests the second alternative, IMO. > > Could be wrong. Time will tell. I read your links The reason the attempt to delay the case was denied by the judge is that the defendants could not be properly served with notification of the delay - because they were in Russia and no one would accept the papers. Courts have VERY rigid policies on document service and they don’t make exceptions. It had nothing to do with the merits of the case. I bet at some point the judge calls out the defendant for playing games and tells them that if they are going to continue to serve the prosecutors with demands they have to be available to receive service. And I just don’t see how them bringing charges even though it’s improbable that they’ll ever get their hands on the defendants equates to the whole thing being a PR stunt. I’m under the impression that prosecutors do this all the time, because of things like statutes of limitations. And it may be necessary in order to build other cases…if you’re going to charge some people with aiding and abetting a crime you should probably also charge someone with the crime, even if you can’t catch them. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4487 "2018-05-08T02:33:27Z")
NY AG Schneiderman [resigns](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/eric-schneiderman-violence-allegations/index.html) amidst sexual harassment claims. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4488 "2018-05-08T03:03:44Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > NY AG Schneiderman [resigns](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/eric-schneiderman-violence-allegations/index.html) amidst sexual harassment claims. Is it real or is it ratfuck? The timing is suspicious, just like the allegations against Franken. The problem with actually having empathy is that people with no empathy but plenty of agendas can screw you over. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4489 "2018-05-08T03:08:42Z")
Eh, Schneiderman’s always been kinda iffy. Especially given his puppy-dog loyalty to his unambiguously corrupt boss in the state house. But the allegations come from four women, two of whom spoke on the record to [The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/four-women-accuse-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse). ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4490 "2018-05-08T03:27:27Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Eh, Schneiderman’s always been kinda iffy. Especially given his puppy-dog loyalty to his unambiguously corrupt boss in the state house. But the allegations come from four women, two of whom spoke on the record to [The New Yorker](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/four-women-accuse-new-yorks-attorney-general-of-physical-abuse). Schneiderman should be thoroughly investigated, is entitled to mount a vigorous defense and those chips will fall where they may. The women seem very credible and The New Yorker is not given to breathless, irresponsible reporting. Schneiderman did the right thing to step aside immediately. Custom and practice dictates that the investigations working in tandem with Mueller will carry on, with or without Schneiderman. Like most government offices, they’re designed to proceed irrespective of who is at the helm. Evidence is evidence. And no one is indispensable. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4491 "2018-05-08T03:30:49Z")
> [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > “My speculation is better than your speculation.” Or, more precisely, “In my humble and completely unbiased opinion, my speculation is better than your speculation.” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4492 "2018-05-08T04:01:18Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Custom and practice dictates that the investigations working in tandem with Mueller will carry on, with or without Schneiderman. Like most government offices, they’re designed to proceed irrespective of who is at the helm. Evidence is evidence. And no one is indispensable. Note also that Schneiderman’s replacement will be appointed by the majority-Democratic state legislature. (And also that in the meantime, the NY state Attorney General’s office is scarcely a skeleton operation. There are many people working the Trump-related cases, and they will go on doing so.) ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4493 "2018-05-08T05:27:55Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > > [@Not\_Carlson](#): > > > > “My speculation is better than your speculation.” > > Or, more precisely, “In my humble and completely unbiased opinion, my speculation is better than your speculation.” Awww, c’mon, don’t you both know friend **Blithering-Phlopp** has the BEST speculation? TERRIFIC speculation. Actually, the most TREMENDOUS speculation! The type of speculation Obama and Crooked Hillary dream of having!!! BELIEVE ME. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4494 "2018-05-08T10:50:25Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > NY AG Schneiderman [resigns](https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/07/politics/eric-schneiderman-violence-allegations/index.html) amidst sexual harassment claims. These are claims violent assault, not sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4495 "2018-05-08T23:10:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The “brief” is very much backed up by the articles. > > Sorry if that causes any cognitive dissonance for people who prefer a sanitized safe space. I’m missing where the article(s) suggest the indictments were “a PR stunt” - will you point that out? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4496 "2018-05-08T23:21:08Z")
> **[Stormy Daniels’s lawyer: Cohen was paid $500K by Putin-tied company after...](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/386802-stormy-daniels-lawyer-cohen-may-have-used-money-from-putin-tied/)** > > Stormy Daniels’s attorney Michael Avenatti said Tuesday that President Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen received $500,000 in the months after the 2016 election from a company run by a Rus… "Stormy Daniels’s attorney Michael Avenatti said Tuesday that President Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen received $500,000 in the months after the 2016 election from a company run by a Russian oligarch with ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin. Avenatti said that the funding may have been used to reimburse the $130,000 payment Cohen made to Daniels to stay quiet about her alleged affair with Trump." ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4497 "2018-05-08T23:35:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/386802-stormy-daniels-lawyer-cohen-may-have-used-money-from-putin-tied](http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/386802-stormy-daniels-lawyer-cohen-may-have-used-money-from-putin-tied) > > "Stormy Daniels’s attorney Michael Avenatti said Tuesday that President Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen received $500,000 in the months after the 2016 election from a company run by a Russian oligarch with ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin. > > Avenatti said that the funding may have been used to reimburse the $130,000 payment Cohen made to Daniels to stay quiet about her alleged affair with Trump." The oligarch is the same fellow Mueller’s team stopped at a New York area airport for questioning a couple of months ago: Viktor Vekselberg. I think we can safely assume that Mueller’s team already knew about the payments. (I’m glad we now know about them, too!) Mother Jones also reported in August that Andrew Intrater, an American cousin of Viktor Vekselberg, gave $250,000 to the Trump inaugural fund, despite having no history as a major political donor. Until that point, he’d given a total of about $4,000 in donations across elections, and mostly to Democratic candidates. I sincerely don’t get why people don’t understand that Mueller is deep into the Russian conspiracy stuff and that this avenue of inquiry is bearing significant fruit. Perhaps even into the RNC. [Mother Jones article](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/04/special-counsel-robert-mueller-is-asking-russian-oligarchs-if-they-gave-money-to-trump/) ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4498 "2018-05-09T00:04:13Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I sincerely don’t get why people don’t understand that Mueller is deep into the Russian conspiracy stuff and that this avenue of inquiry is bearing significant fruit. Perhaps even into the RNC. Because they don’t WANT to understand. Heck, we have at least one poster who’ll bend into logical knots to say “Nuh-uh. It’ll all turn out to be nothing. All that proof? It’ll turn out to be harmless payments to… paperboys! Yeah, paperboys.” I think it’s a tribal “My side’s better than yours, and I can’t face the fact that I chose a side that’s turned out to be immoral, so I’m going with any explanation that exonerates my side.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4499 "2018-05-09T00:05:04Z")
Given that ATT and Novartis have just issued non-denial denials in regards to post-election payments made to Cohen’s company, the same company receiving money from Russian plutocrats, I’m pretty sure there is nothing on this burger, and that this story is a complete and total Phlopp. > > So now we know how much the entry fee was to kill Net Neutrality and Obamacare - $500k. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4500 "2018-05-09T00:10:51Z")
So, I guess ATT and Novartis were paying the Stormy hush money too? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4501 "2018-05-09T00:13:02Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > So, I guess ATT and Novartis were paying the Stormy hush money too? They were paying Cohen for his closeness (ick) to Trump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=224) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=226)