# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 232
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4622 "2018-05-16T23:23:37Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Sometimes, amongst all the stuff you write that I just plum can’t figure out, you put out a gem that reaches levels of Shakespearean wit. “…but I was struck speechless by this complimentary thunderbolt! Never have I heard a compliment so well-phrased, or so richly deserved!” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4623 "2018-05-17T00:10:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Are you kidding? Any second now some asshole will say, and others will repeat, “Fuck that they aren’t commies anymore and I’d rather help a Russian than a liberal; at least Russians like guns!” Plus, Russians are white. That’s pretty important, too. Funny how the Trump voters are able to create an alternative reality in which Putin is happy for his subjects to own firearms. Because, no: > [@](#): > > “It appears the Russians…infiltrated the NRA,” Glenn Simpson, founder of the opposition research firm Fusion GPS, testifies to the House Intelligence Committee. “They targeted various conservative organizations, religious and otherwise, and they seem to have made a very concerted effort to get in with the NRA.” Referencing Torshin and Butina, he adds, “The most absurd [thing] about this is that, you know, Vladimir Putin is not in favor of universal gun ownership for Russians. And so it’s all a big charade, basically.” > **[The very strange case of two Russian gun lovers, the NRA, and Donald Trump](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/trump-russia-nra-connection-maria-butina-alexander-torshin-guns/)** > > Here's what we uncovered about an odd pair from Moscow who cultivated the Trump campaign. And, six years earlier: > [@](#): > > …in Russia, where there is no constitutional right to bear arms, in a well-regulated militia or otherwise. Instead, Russians are allowed to own smoothbore hunting rifles, as well as “compliance weapons”—that is, guns that shoot rubber bullets or are powered by gas. > … The major obstacle for Butina and her group is Putin. Never mind that he himself is an avid outdoorsman. Behind closed doors, Putin seems to have put forth the position that his surrogates are vocalizing: It is too soon, and too dangerous. Gudkov has a different explanation: “He’s afraid of his own people.” > **[The very strange case of two Russian gun lovers, the NRA, and Donald Trump](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/03/trump-russia-nra-connection-maria-butina-alexander-torshin-guns/)** > > Here's what we uncovered about an odd pair from Moscow who cultivated the Trump campaign. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4624 "2018-05-17T00:22:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > … A miracle of anatomy, men who can shit without having guts. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Sometimes, amongst all the stuff you write that I just plum can’t figure out, you put out a gem that reaches levels of Shakespearean wit. Or, in this case, excretes a gem. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4625 "2018-05-17T00:27:04Z")
One of the things the Russians use to great advantage in their subversion of our democratic republic is the woeful state of education of our citizens. Few Americans could point to Crimea on a map, let alone explain the structure of Russian “government” – meaning egocentric Americans assume they run things over there the same way we run things over here. It’s a huge mistake on our part. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4626 "2018-05-17T00:52:31Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > One of the things the Russians use to great advantage in their subversion of our democratic republic is the woeful state of education of our citizens. Few Americans could point to Crimea on a map, let alone explain the structure of Russian “government” – meaning egocentric Americans assume they run things over there the same way we run things over here. It’s a huge mistake on our part. So true. And what you describe is the state of affairs for the past few decades…_before_ the Trump/DeVos determination to gut public education had its real start. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4627 "2018-05-17T00:57:51Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > So true. And what you describe is the state of affairs for the past few decades…_before_ the Trump/DeVos determination to gut public education had its real start. In spite of all the problems facing public education today, this really isn’t true. Educational attainment in the US has been [steadily growing](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png) for decades, and services available for people with intellectual disabilities have grown from “sit in the corner and be quiet” to a robust system of intervention, special services, and research into learning disabilities. It’s not nearly enough and there’s a lot more work to do (especially with regard to disabilities), but the idea that the American public is getting stupider is not supported by evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4628 "2018-05-17T01:12:04Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > In spite of all the problems facing public education today, this really isn’t true. Educational attainment in the US has been [steadily growing](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d1/Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png) for decades, and services available for people with intellectual disabilities have grown from “sit in the corner and be quiet” to a robust system of intervention, special services, and research into learning disabilities. > It’s not nearly enough and there’s a lot more work to do (especially with regard to disabilities), but the idea that the American public is getting stupider is not supported by evidence. A quick search of “Americans,” “compared with,” “nations,” and “on a map” produced some hits on the topic: > [@](#): > > When Newsweek set 1,000 Americans the challenge of completing their country’s citizenship test, 29 percent could not name the current vice president (Joe Biden), and almost three quarters could not correctly say why America fought the Cold War. > > Six per cent could not remember the date of Independence Day. > > A blind telephone survey of over 1,000 Americans, carried out by the McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum (a museum dedicated to the first amendment), found that more Americans could identify more members of the Simpsons cartoon family than first amendment rights. > > The first amendment rights guarantee freedom of religion, free speech, free press, association, and the ability to petition government. > > But only one in a thousand correctly identified all of these. Just one in four Americans could name more than one of their rights, while the same number could name all five members of the Simpson family. > > Americans fared even worse on international issues. > > A National Geographic poll of over 500 young Americans, aged 18 to 24, showed that six per cent failed to locate their own country on a map of the world. … > **[Americans surveyed: misunderstood, misrepresented or ignorant?](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10640690/Americans-surveyed-misunderstood-misrepresented-or-ignorant.html)** > > Following the results of the poll suggesting a quarter of Americans do not know the Earth circles the Sun, we look at some other examples of surprising US survey results There’s more, but I want to keep to fair use in quoting this article. And there are plenty more (particularly if you take out the ‘on a map’ search term–it opens the search up to American ignorance on a host of topics.) I don’t like to link to paywalled-sites, but there appears to be a good article on the subject at the _New York Times_ called “America the Clueless.” Worth a look for those with subscriptions. It’s certainly a good thing if services for those with disabilities have improved–but that says little about the educational success or failure of the American system for the mass of students. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4629 "2018-05-17T01:24:01Z")
Did you even look at the graph I linked to? Do you understand that it’s possible for a subset of people to be bad in a subject like geography while still demonstrating vastly increased educational attainment over the past 60 years? Do you think knowing the capitals of the Baltics is, by itself, a meaningful measure of general knowledge, analytical ability, and reasoning? Because people who do actually know how to measure that stuff are in agreement that they are significantly improved over only a couple generations, and are getting better. Not just here, but all over the world. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4630 "2018-05-17T02:05:03Z")
But **friedo** , all your graph measures is how Americans compare in education to each of their own generations. How meaningful is that? How educated are they in relationship to the rest of the world? This matters more, in my opinion. Moreover, I’m not sure that completing a college education is a good measure of overall general knowledge. I’m continually shocked at the things college educated Americans don’t know. So many things that used to be taught in schools are no longer taught: Civics and evolution, to name just a couple. People no longer know how to handwrite. Spelling, grammar and understanding of word definition is poor and continues to decline. How do we talk to the rest of the world when we can’t even understand what we’re saying to one another? Hell, we can’t even agree on facts anymore. There are an awful lot of people in this country who don’t know how to identify a fact if it bites them in the ass. They just believe what they want to believe. I wasn’t trying to start a rabbit-hole conversation in this thread. But I do think it is painfully evident that a depressing number of Americans are poorly educated when compared to populations in other first world countries. Tell me you can’t peg a Canadian on this board even before they spell the word, ‘behavio(u)r.’ ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4631 "2018-05-17T03:16:53Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > But **friedo** , all your graph measures is how Americans compare in education to each of their own generations. How meaningful is that? It is meaningful if the question we are trying to answer is, “are Americans more or less educated than they were in the past?” > [@](#): > > So many things that used to be taught in schools are no longer taught: Civics and evolution, to name just a couple. Both of these things are taught in schools. > [@](#): > > People no longer know how to handwrite. Spelling, grammar and understanding of word definition is poor and continues to decline. Do you have any actual evidence of this, or is this your opinion? > [@](#): > > Hell, we can’t even agree on facts anymore. No shit. For example, you just made up a bunch of things about education which are not actually facts. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4632 "2018-05-17T04:25:18Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It is meaningful if the question we are trying to answer is, “are Americans more or less educated than they were in the past?” Not the point I was trying to make, if you go back and read my original post on the matter. > [@friedo](#): > > Both of these things are taught in schools. Not all schools, and I was shocked to learn it. I originally heard this from a student who is the daughter of friends of mine. I went on to ask a variety of youngsters in school more recently than me and found that the lack of education in the 2 particular subjects I mentioned is common in many places. Sorry I can’t cite you to anything more specific. Do you have a cite that demonstrates otherwise? Also, do you believe evolution is taught to homeschooled and/or charter school students, both of which avenues of education have become more common in this country? > [@friedo](#): > > No shit. For example, you just made up a bunch of things about education which are not actually facts. I made nothing up. You need only look around this message board to see the decline in the things I listed, and it’s far worse on other message boards, other social media sites and in work communications. If you don’t see it, that seems rather willful on your part. Here are some links, since you are demanding them: [Kids Who Can’t Handwrite](http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/08/10/handwriting.horror/index.html) (CNN) [America’s Spelling is a National Disaster](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/raising-readers-writers-and-spellers/201702/americas-spelling-is-national-disaster) (Psychology Today) [Vocabulary Results Aren’t Pretty](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/06/vocabulary-test-results-us_n_2249647.html) (Huffpost) **Sherrerd** also cited you to several articles that demonstrate the sad state of American education in relationship to the rest of the world. Did you read them? You’ve offered nothing substantive to support your contentions beyond a graph that shows more people have availed themselves of the American education system than in decades past. This says nothing whatever about the quality of such education in relationship to other countries – and that was the point I was making, which you seem to have missed. As a nation, this lack makes us vulnerable to manipulation such as the Russians have visited upon us. Do you have cites that demonstrate the USA is ahead of other developed nations in the area of education? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4633 "2018-05-17T11:51:48Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Trump[disclosed a greater than 100K reimbursement to Cohen](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/us/politics/trump-financial-disclosure.html) in his new financial disclosures. Strangely, he plum forgot about that in last year’s disclosures. Unless he didn’t forget about it, and willfully omitted it. But, that seems impossible because it would be a crime. It could be innocent, perhaps they played each other in golf and Cohen won a six figure bet because Donald penalized himself for an obscure rule violation. Every day goes by the smoke gets thicker and dirtier and the probability of there not being a blazing fire gets smaller and smaller. I think before 2020, Cohen is going to taste freedom for the last time in his life. Apparently this entire criminal enterprise has been on the FBI’s warehouse long before any 2016 campaign was considered. Donald was right about one thing- it’s going to be HUGE! ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4634 "2018-05-17T14:37:34Z")
Mueller investigation,\* today you are one!\* 🙂 Happy birthday! Cue balloons, confetti, music (what songs?), ice cream (2 scoops for everyone!), party hats… We’ve already got the clowns, magicians, and kool-aid. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4635 "2018-05-17T15:26:32Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Just thinkin’, the Venn diagram of Artists and Trumpists has got to look almost like two separate circles… (well, if we specify GOOD Artists, they might be two circles that bounce off each other, carom around the room, try to get close and ricochet away again). > > And I say that as an Art teacher. Even my Redneck Guns ‘n’ Camo students think he’s an idiot. Well I know of at least one self proclaimed artist who seems very pro-Trump, but I’m not sure that he’s good. I don’t think he’s very successful since he says he’s starving. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4636 "2018-05-17T15:31:29Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Well I know of at least one self proclaimed artist who seems very pro-Trump, but I’m not sure that he’s good. I don’t think he’s very successful since he says he’s starving. “I prefer artists that aren’t starving.” I’m going to tell my students that, in my best Donald voice. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4637 "2018-05-17T16:01:27Z")
**[Whistleblower Leaked Damning Cohen Financial Documents Because They Were Disappearing From Government Financial Crimes Database](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/whistleblower-leaked-damning-cohen-financial-documents-because-they-were-disappearing-from-government-financial-crimes-database.html)** Millions of dollars of suspicious transactions have been scrubbed from a federal database that should never have anything removed from it. > [@](#): > > “To say that I am terrified right now would be an understatement,” the official said of the potential legal consequences. “We’ve accepted this as normal, and this is not normal,” the official said of the disappearing documents. “Things that stand out as abnormal, like documents being removed from a system, are of grave concern to me… This is a terrifying time to be an American, to be in this situation, and to watch all of this unfold.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4638 "2018-05-17T16:11:11Z")
I’m skeptical. A whistleblower would alert another government official or agency, or at most release the info to a respected media source. A guy who releases someone’s records to a lawyer for a an opposing plaintiff is not a whistleblower. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4639 "2018-05-17T16:18:15Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > **[Whistleblower Leaked Damning Cohen Financial Documents Because They Were Disappearing From Government Financial Crimes Database](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/whistleblower-leaked-damning-cohen-financial-documents-because-they-were-disappearing-from-government-financial-crimes-database.html)** > > Millions of dollars of suspicious transactions have been scrubbed from a federal database that should never have anything removed from it. Umm. They had better check their backups. They do have backups, right? ---
**Author:** ![SaneBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@SaneBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaneBill)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4640 "2018-05-17T16:18:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m skeptical. A whistleblower would alert another government official or agency, Haw haw haw 😃 ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4641 "2018-05-17T16:21:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m skeptical. A whistleblower would alert another government official or agency, or at most release the info to a respected media source. A guy who releases someone’s records to a lawyer for a an opposing plaintiff is not a whistleblower. If a chicken finds a fox raiding the henhouse, does the chicken go running to another fox? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=231) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=233)