# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 246
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4902 "2018-06-02T01:39:31Z")
My conspiracy theory is that the Chinese manipulated the Russians into manipulating the 2016 election. They seem like the big winners of the Trump presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4903 "2018-06-02T02:53:50Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Looks as though someone might be doing just that: > > [Signs of sophisticated cell-phone spying found near White House, say U.S. officials – The Denver Post](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/01/white-house-spy-technology-found/) Oh, it’s just foreign intelligence services. You had me scared for a minute, I thought it might be Democrats! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4904 "2018-06-02T21:29:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > All of this concern about cell-spying devices assumes he’s not deliberately giving Putin classified info. I’m not convinced he’s actually working as an agent, witting or unwitting, but I’m not convinced he’s not, either. I would not be one particle surprised if evidence emerged that Trump is deliberately giving classified information to Putin—presumably both for cash and to avoid having Putin-held compromat released. Carrot and stick. But even if Trump is consciously giving Putin stuff, that doesn’t mean that Trump isn’t also _un_consciously giving lots of other people-and-nations even more stuff. Among all those listening in to Trump’s unsecured-phone communications, there will be some who will be profiting (from advance knowledge that will enable lucrative stock-market activity, for example). There will be some selling the information to others (in the case of info on defense-department actions, etc.) And there will be some filing the information away for future use. In all this, what I can’t understand is how Trump voters can continue to _genuinely believe_ that Hillary endangered the nation by having a server—when no evidence has ever emerged that it was compromised—while remaining indifferent to the fact that Trump is the leakiest sieve ever to set foot in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4905 "2018-06-02T22:10:15Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > …In all this, what I can’t understand is how Trump voters can continue to _genuinely believe_ that Hillary endangered the nation by having a server—when no evidence has ever emerged that it was compromised—while remaining indifferent to the fact that Trump is the leakiest sieve ever to set foot in Washington. The regular Republicans don’t give a fuck what thump does as long as he gets people to vote Republican. And the Pubs in Congress KNEW that Hillary’s server posed NO threat to the nation’s security. The deplorables are too stoopid to understand any of this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4906 "2018-06-02T22:21:49Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > In all this, what I can’t understand is how Trump voters can continue to _genuinely believe_ that Hillary endangered the nation by having a server—when no evidence has ever emerged that it was compromised—while remaining indifferent to the fact that Trump is the leakiest sieve ever to set foot in Washington. Their opinions are not fact-based is how. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4907 "2018-06-03T00:53:16Z")
Great news, folks. The White House lawyers have declared that Trump can’t “obstruct” justice and that he can basically end any criminal justice investigation whenever the hell he wants, for any reason. > **[Trump's Lawyers Argue It's Not Possible For The President To Obstruct Justice](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trumps-lawyers-argue-he-cant-obstruct-justice-because-hes-president_n_5b12ebc1e4b0d5e89e2020e3)** > > A 20-page letter sets up a possible battle for the president's testimony in the Russia investigation. Did anyone expect anything different?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4908 "2018-06-03T01:00:58Z")
They are literally arguing that the president is above the law. That’s not the subtext of their argument, but their actual argument. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4909 "2018-06-03T01:07:22Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > They are literally arguing that the president is above the law. That’s not the subtext of their argument, but **their actual argument**. They always believed this. Trump believed this the moment he fired James Comey, and he obviously believed it well before then. He believed it when he tried to gaslight America on inauguration day when telling outrageous lies about the size of the crowds. If truth is the cornerstone of American jurisprudence, then what does it say when the single most powerful individual in the Constitution governs on a foundation of lies??? Maybe the cornerstone of American jurisprudence is crumbling, and with it, the country itself. My point all along has been that Mueller’s investigation, the Department of Justice, and the Constitution itself don’t mean shit. They’re not going to stop an authoritarian regime that was democratically elected – laws cannot stop such a beast, for the simple reason that this Leviathan gets its power from the people who created it. It’s the people who have to destroy this monster, and if they are indifferent, and if they are naively fooled into believing that their little good luck charm of a president is the reason that unemployment is at a 40-year low, then we - are - fucked. Full stop. Do you all now see what I’m saying? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4910 "2018-06-03T01:08:06Z")
Of course they’re SAYING that. They can say whatever they damn well please, and given who their client is, it’s not surprising. He and his cronies have SAID a lot. In this particular case, I’m saving my outrage for when he actually tries it. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4911 "2018-06-03T01:10:51Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Of course they’re SAYING that. They can say whatever they damn well please, and given who their client is, it’s not surprising. He and his cronies have SAID a lot. > > In this particular case, I’m saving my outrage for when he actually tries it. It’s going to happen. What about Jim Comey’s firing left any doubt in your mind that this would happen? What about Andrew McCabe’s firing left any doubt that this would happen? What about the pardoning of Joe Arpaio and other right wing allies leaves any doubt that this would happen? Time to take the blinders off. We’re witnessing the collapse of American democracy. You’ve got ringside seats. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4912 "2018-06-03T01:12:30Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > New Filing: Feds to get 1,025,000 pieces of evidence tomorrow, all resulting from the April Cohen raid. > > [x.com](https://twitter.com/AriMelber/status/1001598595483820033?s=19) Oh, God damn it, now we have _another_ addition to the _dramatis personae_? Okay, who the fuck is April Cohen, when was she raided, who raided her, and how is she supposed to be involved in all this? Wikipedia is being singularly unhelpful about these developments… ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4913 "2018-06-03T01:14:22Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s going to happen. > > What about Jim Comey’s firing left any doubt in your mind that this would happen? What about Andrew McCabe’s firing left any doubt that this would happen? > What about the pardoning of Joe Arpaio and other right wing allies leaves any doubt that this would happen? > > Time to take the blinders off. We’re witnessing the collapse of American democracy. You’ve got ringside seats. So you’re arguing that by his popularity and such, Trump already has fascist power? Because if the law is irrelevant, and the legal system tries to stop him from, say, ending the investigation, then no legal mechanism is going to allow him to do that, so he’d have to send in the FBI or CIA, both of which he’s already attacked heavily, to actually arrest Mueller and judges and any Congressperson who tries to stop him. If so, I’m gonna start aiding and abetting Trump right now to stay alive. Where did you say you lived again, asahi? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4914 "2018-06-03T01:15:59Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Oh, God damn it, now we have _another_ addition to the _dramatis personae_? Okay, who the fuck is April Cohen, when was she raided, who raided her, and how is she supposed to be involved in all this? > > Wikipedia is being singularly unhelpful about these developments… In other words, the raid on Cohen in April. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4915 "2018-06-03T01:20:47Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > In other words, the raid on Cohen in April. I think he was joking…? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4916 "2018-06-03T01:21:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Of course, nobody should try to actually hack into his accounts. I would imagine that if you succeeded, you would be caught and prosecuted. You might even be caught if you try. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I look forward to seeing Putin locked up in Leavenworth for that. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > He probably already has a pardon for his buddy Vlad all filled out and ready to sign. _Pfeh_. It’s probably already been signed and delivered to Putin via diplomatic pouch. All Vlad needs to do is fill in the date. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4917 "2018-06-03T01:29:13Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > If you want to get pedantic, and the defenders will, it is legal for the President to declassify anything. The Secretary of State doesn’t have that authority. > [@Moriarty](#): > > Actually, while the President is vested with classification authority, the President can delegate that authority. [Executive Order 13526](https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html), signed by Obama in 2009, delegates this authority to agency heads (like the Secretary of State). > > > [@](#): > > > > ec. 1.3. Classification Authority. > > (a) The authority to classify information > > originally may be exercised only by: > > (1) the President and the Vice President; > > (2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and > > (3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section. Anything in there to suggest a requirement that such delegatees be prepared to show evidence that they have been duly empowered to wield such delegated authority? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4918 "2018-06-03T01:36:41Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So you’re arguing that by his popularity and such, Trump already has fascist power? Because if the law is irrelevant, and the legal system tries to stop him from, say, ending the investigation, then no legal mechanism is going to allow him to do that, so he’d have to send in the FBI or CIA, both of which he’s already attacked heavily, to actually arrest Mueller and judges and any Congressperson who tries to stop him. > > If so, I’m gonna start aiding and abetting Trump right now to stay alive. Where did you say you lived again, asahi? One of the greatest misconceptions and reasons for our false sense of security is the assumption that if authoritarianism were to replace American democracy, we would recognize the danger. We assume that the danger would be clear and compelling, obvious and immediate. And we assume further that we would recognize that we as a society have gone too far, lowered our standards too much, and would come to our senses and vote to restore our norms. \*\*That’s not how it works. \*\* Democracy dies slowly. Over a long period of time. Think of the World Trade Towers on 9/11. It sustained an obvious assault, but initially it remained standing and appeared to have withstood the damage. But what people couldn’t see was that the metal frame that supported the mega-structure was melting away. And then…it collapsed. It’s not what you see; it’s what you don’t see that will destroy American democracy. You will see. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4919 "2018-06-03T01:44:41Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that the actual picture is a bit more complex - and simultaneously also a bit simpler, oddly - than this. > > I highly doubt if Trump could articulate exactly what it is that HRC did which endangered national security. If we’re being candid, I highly doubt that _you_ could… > [@](#): > > I think he has some very vague idea that it had to do with emails and a server, but that’s probably about it. (At least on a regular basis - it’s possible that he’s seen a Fox show on the subject within the last half hour that he might be able to add a bit more detail.) So he’s consistently concerned about national security in the sense that he genuinely believes his foggy notion that HRC did VERY BAD stuff which ENDANGERED NATIONAL SECURITY. **You’re giving him far too much credit for being concerned about the interests of the United States of America.** It’s way more plausible to just assume that he sees it as red meat that he can throw to his base as applause lines, and let it go at that. > [@](#): > > By contrast, his own actions seem benign to him, and don’t seem to be endangering national security as far as he can tell, and who would know better? See **above.** > [@](#): > > Of course, all the above just relates to the extent to which Trump is a hypocrite. For everyone else it’s kind of moot, because no one should be basing their opinion on what is or isn’t a national security concern on anything Trump thinks, obviously. o\_o \>\_\< o\_0 You just said something that I can’t disagree with in the slightest particular. **Moriarty** was right; you _are_ turning a corner… So…welcome to the dark side; have a cookie? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4920 "2018-06-03T01:56:48Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > One of the greatest misconceptions and reasons for our false sense of security is the assumption that if authoritarianism were to replace American democracy, we would recognize the danger. We assume that the danger would be clear and compelling, obvious and immediate. And we assume further that we would recognize that we as a society have gone too far, lowered our standards too much, and would come to our senses and vote to restore our norms. \*\*That’s not how it works. \*\* > > Democracy dies slowly. Over a long period of time. Think of the World Trade Towers on 9/11. It sustained an obvious assault, but initially it remained standing and appeared to have withstood the damage. But what people couldn’t see was that the metal frame that supported the mega-structure was melting away. And then…it collapsed. It’s not what you see; it’s what you don’t see that will destroy American democracy. > > You will see. So you’ve said. I don’t see how you’ve come even within shouting distance of what I was actually asking, though. You’ll have to connect A to B for me; I’m dumb. Still sounds like the best thing to do is flee the country or become a collaborator. Which are you preparing to do? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/4921 "2018-06-03T02:03:32Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So you’ve said. I don’t see how you’ve come even within shouting distance of what I was actually asking, though. You’ll have to connect A to B for me; I’m dumb. > > Still sounds like the best thing to do is flee the country or become a collaborator. Which are you preparing to do? Neither. Refuse to be controlled by power you don’t consent to being ruled by. Refuse to obey. Accept that the cost of defying authority can be high. Be willing to pay that price - no matter what. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=245) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=247)