# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/501 "2017-11-04T00:12:51Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Taking part in it is treason. > Covering it up during or after the fact is treason. > Keeping silent about it is treason. > Lying about it is treason. > > They ALL need to go to prison. Prison, hell. Trump wants a wall? Give it to him. Then stand him in front of it. Along with every other traitorous sonofabitch he’s brought onboard. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/502 "2017-11-04T00:30:00Z")
Rather weak sauce, **Silenus**. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy. But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/503 "2017-11-04T01:14:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Rather weak sauce, **Silenus**. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy. > > But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won’t you? I agree. Beans and rice. Unfortunately, the charge of treason may not fit as it’s defined. ‘Aid and comfort to the enemy’. It may be hard to define Russia as the enemy. I wouldn’t want to. Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty. But of course the craven republicans won’t act on that. Some worry about what his base will do if Trump is out of office, and Pence takes over. I don’t care. I believe that justice should be quick and complete. It’s the only way to keep this shit from happening again and again. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/504 "2017-11-04T02:51:09Z")
Slate has an interesting bit of [speculation](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/11/robert_mueller_s_brilliant_strategy_for_outmaneuvering_trump_pardons.html) on Mueller’s strategy. Nothing too new but details on a possible avoidance of some easy charges that could be prosecuted by the Feds or NY State. Avoiding them as a Fed charge makes a pardon less likely to work in Manfort’s favor. > [@Slate](#): > > Mueller knows that Trump can pardon Manafort (or any defendant) in order to relieve the pressure to cooperate with Mueller and to keep them quiet. But Mueller also knows that presidential pardons affect only federal crimes and not state-level crimes. On the one hand, double jeopardy rules under the Fifth Amendment prevent a second prosecution for the same crime, but the doctrine of dual sovereignty allows a state to follow a federal prosecution (and vice versa). So in theory, Manafort and Papadopoulos can’t rely on Trump’s pardons to save them even after a conviction or a guilty plea. > > But in practice, state rules can expand double jeopardy protections and limit prosecutions. In fact, New York is such a state. New York is the key state for Mueller because New York has jurisdiction over many alleged or potentially uncovered Trump–Russia crimes (conspiracy to hack/soliciting stolen goods/money laundering, etc.), and New York state Attorney General Eric Schneiderman and New York district attorneys are not politically constrained from pursuing charges. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/505 "2017-11-04T03:08:34Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > And what if the receipt of those stolen emails was in exchange for sanctions relief? What would that be called? > [@friedo](#): > > It could be called a violation of the Logan Act, but I’m guessing it’s more likely that it would be simple conspiracy. Conspiracy to do what? Doesn’t there have to be an underlying offence which is the purpose of the conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/506 "2017-11-04T03:50:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty. But of course the craven republicans won’t act on that. Hard to believe that this gets lost in the shuffle. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/507 "2017-11-04T04:00:53Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Hard to believe that this gets lost in the shuffle. Yes. Bueller? Bueller? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/508 "2017-11-04T06:36:06Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > The indictments are brought on behalf of The United States, not Mueller. They don’t go away if he goes away. Responsibility for the prosecution would go to someone else in the Special Counsel’s office, or - if the whole thing is annihilated - elsewhere in the DOJ. Thanks (and **Folacin** ) - that’s pretty much what I would have thought. So my follow up question then is, is there any restriction on who in the Special Counsel’s office can bring an indictment in the first place? Could they, in fact, have a shelf full of 90% there just-need-some-extra-polishing potential indictments that, if anyone tries to stop the office finishing them, could potentially be brought as-is? Because that would be great insurance. Much better than relying solely on Congress ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/509 "2017-11-04T14:51:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree. I think Mueller is going to indict Donald himself. When the seriousness of the charges is revealed, McConnell and Ryan are going to go to the White House and tell him the jig is up. They may fear his base, but let’s face it that base isn’t going to start embracing Democrats. They’ll piss and moan and whine about it, but in 2020 they’ll believe that the Democratic nominee is the spawn of Satan just like they always do and they’ll vote Republican, just like they always do. So the GOP leaders will rise to the occasion and lance the boil. I think you’re right, because there are some Republicans who are either centrists and will go Democrat, or are principled and will stay home. It only takes a few % of those to swing an election. They will require a clear-cut case, but I think they’ll do it if they have to. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/510 "2017-11-04T15:15:21Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I think you’re right, because there are some Republicans who are either centrists and will go Democrat, or are principled and will stay home. It only takes a few % of those to swing an election. > > They will require a clear-cut case, but I think they’ll do it if they have to. George HW Bush voted for Clinton. George W Bush left the Presidental spot blank and then voted for all of the other republicans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/511 "2017-11-04T15:26:31Z")
Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/512 "2017-11-04T15:38:03Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite. [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/04/politics/the-last-republicans-bush-book/index.html) > [@](#): > > In the end, neither Bush voted for their party’s nominee. George H.W. Bush confirmed that he voted for Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton. George W. Bush told Updegrove he left the top of the ballot blank. > “I voted ‘None of the Above’ for president, and Republican down ballot in 2016,” he said. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/513 "2017-11-04T15:41:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that I doubt you, but that pretty much screams for a cite. > **[George W. Bush does not vote for Donald Trump](https://www.businessinsider.com/george-w-bush-not-vote-donald-trump-2016-11)** > > George W. Bush did not cast a ballot for Donald Trump on Election Day, instead opting to leave the option blank and vote for down-ballot Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/514 "2017-11-04T15:52:26Z")
A faltering, uncertain glimmer of hope shines. Some days, that’ll do. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/515 "2017-11-04T15:59:29Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Trump has admitted to Obstruction of Justice on national television. That should be plenty. That and “Unindicted Co-Conspirator” did it for Nixon. But those were days when honor and principle still existed in that party. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/516 "2017-11-04T18:10:19Z")
Just so we’re clear, he has also admitted to collusion with Russians on television. If we had evidence that Trump emailed Putin and said “I hope you’re able to find the 30000 emails that are missing” that would be hailed as a smoking gun. Not sure why it’s any different that he said it from a podium. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/517 "2017-11-04T18:21:11Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Slate has an interesting bit of [speculation](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/11/robert_mueller_s_brilliant_strategy_for_outmaneuvering_trump_pardons.html) on Mueller’s strategy. Nothing too new but details on a possible avoidance of some easy charges that could be prosecuted by the Feds or NY State. Avoiding them as a Fed charge makes a pardon less likely to work in Manfort’s favor. Thank god the Trump team is so stupid, and thank god these crimes happened in NY state and not Alabama or Mississippi. I do worry about the next Trump style authoritarian. What if they learn how to get around all these legal constraints. The next guy may not be mentally disabled and incompetent the way Trump is. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/518 "2017-11-04T18:24:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Rather weak sauce, **Silenus**. I would sentence him to poverty, let him live in the kinds of places he and his father slumlorded. Buy his dinner at the Dollar Store, take the bus to the doctor. Shooting is too quick and easy. > > But then, I am more vindictive than you. Try not to be so good a person, won’t you? Fuck that, living like that is pretty sweet compared to living in a maximum security prison. Even if Trump does get sentenced, he will end up in a white collar prison. Which sucks, I’d rather he end up in a maximum security wing somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/519 "2017-11-04T19:56:26Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Just so we’re clear, he has also admitted to collusion with Russians on television. If we had evidence that Trump emailed Putin and said “I hope you’re able to find the 30000 emails that are missing” that would be hailed as a smoking gun. Not sure why it’s any different that he said it from a podium. You’re really not sure? I mean, if you’re just saying that hyperbolically, fine. I can type out a paragraph that explains the difference. Happy to help. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/520 "2017-11-04T22:39:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re really not sure? > > I mean, if you’re just saying that hyperbolically, fine. I can type out a paragraph that explains the difference. Happy to help. I’m really not sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=27)