# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 276
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5502 "2018-07-14T15:40:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > That is an awful lot of words to explain away your half-vote for Trump. Brilliantly, succinctly stated. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5503 "2018-07-14T15:48:25Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No shit. So the Clintons were guilty of “extreme shadiness”. What does that even mean? Because they’ve been smeared for a quarter century, that means there’s something to it? It’s like if you’re on a plane and the choice is fish or steak- if you ask for lasagna you’re not going to get it. Every election the choice is between two people with a chance to be president. **Voting for someone with no chance voids your ability to defeat the greater evil, or in the past case, the greatest evil ever to inhabit the nation.** Additionally, voting third party encourages divide and conquer tactics of fringe elements, and it increases the risk that fringe candidates and fringe parties can commandeer the political system. If history teaches us anything, it’s that if someone threatens to change a democratic system to something else, you not only don’t vote for that person, you unify in opposition to him/her and vote for that person’s opponent. Even Hillary Clinton’s strongest supporters have acknowledged her tendencies to stand down and take watered down centrist positions for the sake of preserving a coalition. And we acknowledge some of her bungled foreign policy decisions and votes. The Democratic party could have done a much better job building a competitive field. But nobody who voted against Trump seriously believed she represented the same level of threat to our political norms, our institutions, and our form of government. There was only one choice to make. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5504 "2018-07-14T16:59:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Server history… > > … > Clinton email: Not Hacked But that doesn’t fit the “narrative”, does it. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5505 "2018-07-14T17:00:32Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Coincidences, I’m sure: > > Apr 19, 2016 - DCLeaks domain registered by Russians > Apr 19, 2016 - Manafort takes over Trump campaign > > Jun 8, 2016 - DCLeaks launches > Jun 9, 2016 - Trump Tower Meeting > > Jul 27, 2016 - Trump asks Russia to hack Clinton > Jul 27, 2016 - Russia starts hacking Clinton > > (Note they didn’t get Hillary’s email, but got the GOP’s and DNC’s. Note they only released the DNC’s. Note that whatever was in the GOP emails is still useful as blackmail material. Note that a group of GOP senators spent the 4th in Russia. Note that the GOP has been attacking and obstructing justice as much as they can.) > > The GOP is no longer a political party, but a criminal gang working against American interests. > > And sexual assaulters and pedophiles. Let’s not forget that. and traitors. It nees to be repeated. Constantly. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5506 "2018-07-14T17:13:47Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > The Congressman who was asking Guccifer for stolen goods makes me feel like making this point: > > Let us trust that this congressman believed that he was speaking to a lone, citizen Romanian. Let us say that he believed that the Romanian was just someone like Anonymous with his own agenda that was fulfilled by handing the material over. There was no reason to expect a quid pro quo, it was just free goods from some crazy dude on the Internet. > > But now let’s envision that we are running the election for a new Chief for the city fire department. > > Would you elect a fireman who was known to hang out with arsonists? Would you elect a fireman who, even jokingly, called out that some arsonist should go and burn down his opponent’s home? If you would, then you are nothing short of a moron. Even if you vote for him only because you believe that his opponent is himself an _actual active arsonist_ - then you’re still an idiot. Don’t vote for either of those fuckers. Write a name in, abstain, or move to somewhere else. You don’t hire a firefighter who doesn’t seem to give a shit about fighting fires, and you should do everything in your power to avoid doing so. > > Defending the United States of America, it is fair to say - and I don’t think you have to have an IQ over 100 to understand - is sort of a job requirement for a Congressman, a Supreme Court Justice, and the President. It’s not the only thing they do, but it’s still a pretty damn vital aspect of the job. > > Let’s say that as a citizen, you believe that Edward Snowden was a hero. The instant you join or decide to join the US government, you should have no other position than, “Edward Snowden should go to jail.” There is no wiggle room on that. Your job is to ensure that the law is followed and that national security designations like “Top Secret” are meaningful. It is clearly not viable for the military to operate or for diplomats to function if there are no secrets. The country would collapse immediately. The clear weight of governmental necessity leaves no room for personal morality when it is your job to be one of the members of the government. That doesn’t mean you can’t work within the government to effect change or maybe even leak the occasional carefully selected and redacted document to the outside, but it does mean that you have to work to prosecute Edward Snowden, just as you have to defend every crook that comes through your office if you’re the public defender. It’s not a political thing, it’s just the job description. > > So if you are in the government or want to be one of those people, and you discover that people are hacking the government, the military, the political parties, the press, or whatever else and using that material to pervert the lawful, domestic processes of governance, your response **cannot be** , “Oh yeah!? Wow, I hope I can use that to my benefit!” Little Timmy, let me tell you, that’s not what we call a patriot. If you’re expecting that dude to represent you, then you really need to rethink that. There’s only one person that guy is representing and that’s either himself or Daddy Moneybags, and either of those two options you’re fucked. And if you expect him to take care of national security - AKA keeping the country, your job, your family, etc. from being the chew toy of China, Russia, the UAE, or whoever else has the means and will to buy access - then I regret to say that you waited too long to stop huffing paint. > > If you would rather vote for a criminal with your party politics than vote for the other team, you should never vote again. If you ever once complained about Crooked Hillary and then voted for one of these bastards, then you are a fucking chimp. And no, I voted for Johnson. See previous: If your option for fire Chief are an avowed arsonist or a guy whose every friend is an arsonist, **don’t vote for either one!** And if you’re too dumb to figure that out, **do not vote**. If you show yourself to be unable to drive safely, we take away your driver’s license. If you can’t follow this relatively clear and obvious point to not vote for people who have no interest in doing the job you are hiring them for, then you clearly do not have the ability to vote like a reasonable adult. > > Maybe in everything else you are a wonderful person and wise and reasonable. There are brilliant people with debts up the wazoo, who can’t drive a car, refuse to see a doctor, or otherwise have little personal areas of complete incompetence. > > And I’ll say this for Hillary supporters as well: Obama wasn’t investigated for shit. The “racist” majority Republican Congress let that black man fix the economy, pass a health care overhaul, do a deal with Iran, etc. and yeah they had to do it all in ways that gave them plausible deniability, but you’ll note that Congress can always tell the President to fuck himself. Trump tried to do some stuff for Russia unilaterally and they passed a law to force him to impose more sanctions. If they wanted to stop the Iran deal, they could have done so. > > The Republican party launched 4+ investigations into Trump and worked with Rosenstein to set up the Special Counsel. Yeah, most of those have fallen into hell - but that’s probably because they could let Mueller handle it. > > No investigations into Obama. > > Dozens of years of investigations into the Clintons. They passed the law against foreign donations that may take down Trump, because of their investigation into Clinton and Chinese campaign money. > > To be sure, nothing was ever found. The Clintons are clean of everything but extreme shadiness. And, yeah, maybe smoke doesn’t always mean fire and maybe Rob Porter would never have lain a hand on Hope Hicks, despite his history, but there’s a hundred million Democrats in this country. If the only real world contender you can find for the office is Hillary Clinton, out of a hundred million people and blindness from 30 years of bilious, acrid smoke eating at your eyes, then that’s just stupid. And if you bought the argument about smoke and fire and voted for her, well I hope you’re more careful about your romantic partners. > > You should also think about ducking out of this whole voting biz, cause that was some stupid shit. > > (Not to imply that Johnson was some amazing alternative, but at least I tried for a goof over two crooks that are probably sell-outs to foreign interests.) And yet people voted for a guy who is on record asking Russians to sabotage his opponent. Then, despite Clinton havnig a clear popular majority, just enough people in the “Right” places stayed home, giving a demagogue and would be tyrant a so called “electoral landslide” (with the help of the Russian hackers and bots). But Clinton. But Obama. The Meuller investigations did not “fall into hell”, they have ummmmmm how many indictments filed already??? Hmmmmm? So in your supremely false logic, you voted for Johnson, effectively giving it to Trump. Brilliant. By the way, Johnson was a fucking moron. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5507 "2018-07-14T17:14:16Z")
> [@Celidin](#): > > My fever dream is that Mueller’s just waiting until a little closer to the Fall to release the super-damning, fully-supported, and written-easy-enough-for-a-4th-grader-to-understand-it report on obstruction, conspiracy, money laundering, etc etc etc, and indictments on Don Jr, Kushner, maybe Ivanka, hoepfully Rudy, etc etc etc. > > Waiting till late summer/early Fall would be “early enough” to not be seen as an October Surprise and thus meddling in the election, but it’ll be “late enough” that the entire Trump-publican Swamp Party can’t recover and is sunk in the mid-terms. > > Then we can start hearings on anyone who hasn’t resigned in January. Looks like your dream (and mine) may come true. Let’s see what the next few weeks bring. > [@MandaJo](#): > > Is this who y’all really want Mueller to be? Because I think I’d rather have him be truly, utterly impartial, methodically pursuing truth without any particular end in mind. He should be a prosecutor, not a political actor, and he should be aiming at uncovering truth and convicting criminals. He shouldn’t be trying to exact justice through the electoral process. I’ve wanted to address your comment here but haven’t had time till now. I agree Mueller should be above reproach for his handling of this investigation. He is a prosecutor, to be sure. But this is much, much more than a routine prosecution, and for Mueller to disregard this reality would, in my opinion, be negligent and border on malpractice. Impeachment is a political process. Nothing matters more than public awareness and opinion. Mueller’s job is to inform the public of what he learns as a result of his investigation into Russian interference in our 2016 election and beyond. I think Mueller can achieve what you require of him, to be “truly, utterly impartial, methodically pursuing truth without any particular end in mind,” and simultaneously fulfill his objective of educating the public about what he has learned. He is walking a razor-thin tightrope. Has any other prosecutor had to face such a concerted effort to discredit his investigation into criminal activities, in such a public way? To have demands made (egregious, in my opinion) that he give his evidence in advance of the ‘trial?’ To state the basis for his prosecution before interviewing the suspect? Good god. Trump brings the full force of his bully pulpit against Mueller every. Single. Day. Along with his minions in Congress. Yet Mueller remains silent and allows only the results of his investigation – indictments, pleas and sentencings – to speak on his behalf. I think this is wholly appropriate. I think Mueller has balanced the inherent conflicts in his mandate brilliantly. He informs without politicizing. He recognizes the importance of revealing his results in advance of our next election, but never exceeds his specific directives. Do you think he has done something inappropriate with his latest speaking indictment? I don’t. He is not a partisan hack. He is doing his job. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5508 "2018-07-14T17:16:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No shit. So the Clintons were guilty of “extreme shadiness”. What does that even mean? Because they’ve been smeared for a quarter century, that means there’s something to it? It’s like if you’re on a plane and the choice is fish or steak- if you ask for lasagna you’re not going to get it. Every election the choice is between two people with a chance to be president. Voting for someone with no chance voids your ability to defeat the greater evil, or in the past case, the greatest evil ever to inhabit the nation. Benghazi. Vince Foster. The little princes they killed (no it wasn’t King Richard III what did that). The Permian Extinction. The Plague. LIGHT BEER! It was all the Clintons. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5509 "2018-07-14T17:16:24Z")
If the we found a secret message from Trump to Russia asking them to hack his opponent and hours later they did, it would be game over. I can’t understand why it’s different that instead of a secret message it was done with a microphone at a podium. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5510 "2018-07-14T17:18:15Z")
> [@BeenJammin](#): > > So we have a blinding flash of the obvious here, sans the other half of the equation. Since when have BOTH political parties NOT been basically “criminal gangs” working towards their own selfish interests - most which are shared interestes they simply refuse to share? > > Where do you get the idea this is something new or uniquely sinister? The only difference between this and dozens of other similar fiascos in the past is the overtly public nature of it due to modern communications and media. Far more serious, lethal and widespread political scandals have resulted in protracted wars, subversion and other nationalistic niceties. Everyone is in a tizzy about the simple fact that politicians finally realized they can use the Internet and it’s widely diverse population of gullible idiots as dirty campaign tools. What’s old is new again - same old shit. Bullshit. This was deliberate sabotage to steal an election, aided and abetted by a hostile government - TREASON. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5511 "2018-07-14T17:28:51Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Paragraphs 43 and 44 of the indictment specifically mention Americans who requested and/or received some of the stolen information directly from the indicted Russians. 44 in particular describes “a person who was in regular contact with senior members of the Presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump”. It seems to be widely believed, at least in the press reports I’ve read, that this person was Roger Stone. I guess we’ll see in due time whether this is accurate. > > It seems, strictly speaking, that the persons mentioned did not in fact knowingly participate in the hacks themselves; I’ve got to think, however, that requesting and knowingly receiving stolen information directly from the hackers may still present a legal issue or two. I’m happy to stand corrected by someone with a legal background if this is not the case. A Seth Abramson thread on Stone’s involvement. > ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5512 "2018-07-14T18:11:49Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > A Seth Abramson thread on Stone’s involvement. > [https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1018182493290287104](https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1018182493290287104) Here is an easy way to read the thread. > **[Thread by @SethAbramson: "(THREAD) Per Vanity Fair, Stone received a link to...](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1018182493290287104.html)** > > Thread by @SethAbramson: "(THREAD) Per Vanity Fair, Stone received a link to millions of dollars' worth of stolen Clinton data from Guccifer s stolen and which Guccifer directed him to because Stone had engaged him on the subject of stolen data). Did... ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5513 "2018-07-14T18:16:14Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Bullshit. This was deliberate sabotage to steal an election, aided and abetted by a hostile government - TREASON. There’s no TREASON in the new cyber-election game - only media-fanned sensationalism of the same old shit, because now it crossed international borderlines, just like Internet. If you call cyber smear campaign electioneering by any means necessary treason, then you should probably re-consider your definition of treason, because time has passed you by. Nobody was held hostage with a gun to their head in the voting booth. Morons will always be morons. We’re just employing more modern methods of motivating them. It also makes avoiding detection and attribution easier when it’s floating around in cyberspace. Same with email. Facebook, social media - the new mental staple of the moron community, roaming about heads bent towards 3x5 teleprompters reading them faster than they can read themselves, drowning in the or own bullshit. Do you actually believe this might the first time it has happened? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5514 "2018-07-14T18:30:56Z")
Cite for previous times this has happened, that an adverserial power worked with elements of an American Presidential campaign, likely up to and including the candidate himself, to tilt the election. As the above is your claim, and given this is the SDMB, _you_ need to provide proof. That is how it works here. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5515 "2018-07-14T18:36:00Z")
I shy from the word “treason” because many, if not most, of these people genuinely believe they are acting for the good of the country. Which is stupid. Therefore, “stupid” is more reliable and does not depend so much on the eye of the beholder. I don’t need for anyone to go to prison. I need to know the truth. Plenty enough vengeance in that. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5516 "2018-07-14T18:36:08Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Cite for previous times this has happened, that an adverserial power worked with elements of an American Presidential campaign, likely up to and including the candidate himself, to tilt the election. > > As the above is your claim, and given this is the SDMB, _you_ need to provide proof. That is how it works here. How WHAT works here? How do you know I am not a Russian bot? I don’t have time to debate obvious facts, clear to anyone with a reasonable intelligence level, not biased by their political beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5517 "2018-07-14T18:40:32Z")
Well, if it is clear, obvious facts which you are relying on, then provide a citation. A link to an article, book, something. Otherwise you’re full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5518 "2018-07-14T18:42:37Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, if it is clear, provide a citation. A link to an article, book, something. Otherwise you’re full of shit. At least my bullshit’s real - not the kind of SDMB bullshit you like. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5519 "2018-07-14T18:44:04Z")
So, you have nothing but opinions. Gotcha. To be honest, I expected nothing more. Or less, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5520 "2018-07-14T18:49:00Z")
You wanna talk bullshit? SteveG? Big John? We now have a long list Russian agents/officers whatever you want to call them, indicted for what? Not playing nice on Facebook? Give me a fucking break. Huge ongoing joke on the whole country. So sad. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/5521 "2018-07-14T18:57:09Z")
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