# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/561 "2017-11-07T01:12:02Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I see the strategy now. They are doing everything they can to make our heads hurt so long and hard that we will have to throw up our hands and say _fuuuuck_ just to make the pain stop. Funny you should say that. That’s precisely what some are planning to do on Nov. 8. [Thousands of Americans Will Scream Helplessly at the Sky on Trump’s Election Anniversary](http://www.newsweek.com/americans-scream-helplessly-sky-donald-trump-election-anniversary-690889) > [@](#): > > Updated | Thousands of concerned citizens will take part in a new ritual of sorts: commemorating the anniversary of Donald Trump’s election by screaming at the sky. > > Over 4,000 Facebook users have RSVP’d—another 33,000 are interested in attending—to the Nov. 8 event being held in Boston that is literally titled “Scream helplessly at the sky on the anniversary of the election.” … ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/562 "2017-11-07T01:48:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You can’t tell your scandals without a program. You jest, but I can’t any more. Since I read about so many whispers BEFORE things are actually confirmed, half my time ingesting the news is like “Didn’t I already know that?” In my head I have far-fetched rumors, well-reasoned speculation, pretty-solid rumors, breaking news, old news, fake “fake news”. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/563 "2017-11-07T03:12:03Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > That female Russian lawyer is publicly saying that DonJr asked for fort on Hillary and told her they’d be willing to reexamine the Magnitsky Act of they won. > > [https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says](https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-jr-said-anti-russia-law-may-be-reviewed-moscow-lawyer-says) Legally, this is potentially a big deal. This corroborates the testimony of that dude who got busted for lying to the FBI/DOJ and who’s now working with the Mueller investigation. Two sources, one a witness for the Feds and the other a Russian lawyer, now saying the same thing: there was an attempt by individuals in the Trump campaign to influence foreign policy in exchange for something of value. “Collusion” is not a crime. Getting political dirt for free is probably not really all that criminal. But trying to undermine US foreign policy is indeed a criminal act. We’re getting into Logan Act territory here - one of the oldest statutes on the books. But it won’t end there; there are probably multiple people who have perjured themselves and otherwise obstructed justice, who all could be feeling the heat right now. Sen. Al Franken is of the opinion that among them is none other than Buford T Just – I mean General Beauregard himself. I can’t believe that a former US attorney would be that fucking stupid to actually knowingly violate such laws and probably took care to cover his tracks but you never know what hubris will enable a man to do when he’s drunk on power, or the though of having it. If Sessions is indeed in legal jeopardy, it occurred to me that now, finally, his own self-interests are aligned with Trump’s. Who’s to say that Mueller doesn’t just get shut down? Or maybe the counter-offensive against Comey starts in earnest. We’re getting closer to the moment of truth in terms of whether Trump will allow this investigation to continue. More and more evidence points to criminal conduct committed by Donald Trump Jr (and perhaps Jared Kushner as well), who likely violated the Logan Act. I find it hard to believe that Trump would just sit back and watch his family get prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/564 "2017-11-07T03:20:55Z")
[Carter Page’s House testimony is out](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/359058-read-carter-pages-house-intel-testimony). Carter Page is equally dumb, crazy and fucked. There’s a lot of fun stuff, but this might be one of my favorites (keep in mind Page has no lawyer): - ``` Mr. Schiff: So it's your position that you can selectively invoke the Fifth Amendment to provide certain documents but withhold other documents? Mr. Page: […] Mr. Schiff: Dr. Page, is it your position that you have a Fifth Amendment right to provide nonincriminating emails or documents to the committee but withhold incriminating documents from the committee and selectively comply with the subpoena? Mr. Page: I — there are no incriminating — nothing I have done is incriminating or even unethical in any way. The only thing — the only thing that — Mr. Schiff: Dr. Page, if nothing you have is incriminating, then on what basis are you invoking the Fifth Amendment right?* ``` ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/565 "2017-11-07T03:44:03Z")
_Page: I can get you that email. Adam Schiff: We have it. (drops mic, presumably)_ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/566 "2017-11-07T04:43:21Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > We’re getting closer to the moment of truth in terms of whether Trump will allow this investigation to continue. More and more evidence points to criminal conduct committed by Donald Trump Jr (and perhaps Jared Kushner as well), who likely violated the Logan Act. I find it hard to believe that Trump would just sit back and watch his family get prosecuted. :dubious: This is Trump, the one we are talking about. His record of dumping people under the bus [does include relatives](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/08/trump-files-donald-sick-infant-medical-care/), I will not find it hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/567 "2017-11-07T05:03:46Z")
Page testified before Congress _without an attorney?!?!?_ What a maroon! ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/568 "2017-11-07T05:49:11Z")
Carter Page is very, very special. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/569 "2017-11-07T05:51:20Z")
They gave him a Participation Ribbon, he didn’t catch on. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/570 "2017-11-07T12:21:35Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > [Carter Page’s House testimony is out](http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/359058-read-carter-pages-house-intel-testimony). Carter Page is equally dumb, crazy and fucked. > > There’s a lot of fun stuff, but this might be one of my favorites (keep in mind Page has no lawyer): > > - > > ``` > Mr. Schiff: So it's your position that you can selectively invoke the Fifth Amendment to provide certain documents but withhold other documents? > > Mr. Page: […] > > Mr. Schiff: Dr. Page, is it your position that you have a Fifth Amendment right to provide nonincriminating emails or documents to the committee but withhold incriminating documents from the committee and selectively comply with the subpoena? > > Mr. Page: I — there are no incriminating — nothing I have done is incriminating or even unethical in any way. The only thing — the only thing that — > > Mr. Schiff: Dr. Page, if nothing you have is incriminating, then on what basis are you invoking the Fifth Amendment right?* > > ``` UNCLE! I could only get through to about page 110 of the transcript, and I got that far because I fast forwarded through all his whining about how his life has been turned upside down on account of the “Dodgy Dossier.” I’m beginning to form a theory about Dr. Page. He wants to waive his Fifth Amendment privilege ONLY wrt his testimony, which he’s insistent be made available to the public (via transcript, as it turns out); at the same time, he tries to assert a Fifth Amendment privilege wrt his documents which have been subpoenaed. In his testimony, he keeps coming back and hammering on dodgy dossiers, and extrajudicial penalties that have been imposed on him as a result of his having been named in Congressional/Senate testimony and media coverage thereof. Those issues are also significant points in the defamation lawsuits he has filed. My theory (the Kojak kind, not the Hawking kind) is that he wants to use his testimony to try his defamation case in some Trumpista version of a court of public opinion. I noticed that the committee asked him about his social media presence on FB, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. I wonder if they’ve thought to check out 4chan and reddit. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/571 "2017-11-07T12:35:19Z")
> [@Bayard](#): > > Page testified before Congress _without an attorney?!?!?_ What a maroon! This is the nightmare scenario for people implicated in the investigation. They have no idea what people like Carter Page are going to say, and they can’t control the message. Perjury and obstruction traps are everywhere. Eventually, I think Trump and General Beauregard are going to come to the conclusion that the shortest path between two points is a straight line. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/572 "2017-11-07T13:07:20Z")
Maybe this is a Bricker question (I’m too lazy to ferret the statute and relevant case law), but the question is this: Under the Logan Act, is there a distinction to be made between someone who is working to affect foreign policy on the condition of getting elected, or does that even matter? I guess what I’m wondering is, the Trump campaign might say (and would expect them to say) they didn’t do anything to undermine American foreign policy because what they did had no actual impact on foreign policy while they were campaigning. Is that a valid defense? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/573 "2017-11-07T13:14:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > UNCLE! > > I could only get through to about page 110 of the transcript, and I got that far because I fast forwarded through all his whining about how his life has been turned upside down on account of the “Dodgy Dossier.” > > I’m beginning to form a theory about Dr. Page. He wants to waive his Fifth Amendment privilege ONLY wrt his testimony, which he’s insistent be made available to the public (via transcript, as it turns out); at the same time, he tries to assert a Fifth Amendment privilege wrt his documents which have been subpoenaed. > > In his testimony, he keeps coming back and hammering on dodgy dossiers, and extrajudicial penalties that have been imposed on him as a result of his having been named in Congressional/Senate testimony and media coverage thereof. Those issues are also significant points in the defamation lawsuits he has filed. > > My theory (the Kojak kind, not the Hawking kind) is that he wants to use his testimony to try his defamation case in some Trumpista version of a court of public opinion. > > I noticed that the committee asked him about his social media presence on FB, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. I wonder if they’ve thought to check out 4chan and reddit. Page is a nutball. He wants attention. His documents that he’s hiding are probably 99% manifesto and he’s hoping that he can build things up around himself and release everything and have it become the hugest thing ever. That said, he may be a real piece of the puzzle, so you can’t get around dealing with him. You just have to be a bit strategic to make sure that what you end up getting out of him isn’t lies. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/574 "2017-11-07T13:15:17Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > There’s a lot of fun stuff, but this might be one of my favorites (keep in mind Page has no lawyer): Come again? I wouldn’t shake Donald Trump’s hand without legal counsel. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/575 "2017-11-07T13:31:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > > > There’s a lot of fun stuff, but this might be one of my favorites (keep in mind Page has no lawyer):\* > > Come again? > > I wouldn’t shake Donald Trump’s hand without legal counsel. And a 55-gallon drum of industrial-strength hand sanitizer. This is almost certainly premature, but the more this whole affair careens on the more I find myself concerned about what may happen if it does come to the point of impeachment (unlikely as that may seem given the current makeup of Congress). For all his myriad faults, in the end Nixon had enough respect for the norms and the office he held to leave it in an orderly manner and with a semblance of grace; the CFSG does not appear to have any such respect, and it would not surprise me if he contrived to pull the temple down after him. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/576 "2017-11-07T13:48:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Come again? > > I wouldn’t shake Donald Trump’s hand without legal counsel. He was asked about this on Chris Hayes last week. Page’s response? “I have legal advisors”. But, yes, he is doing this without a lawyer. Possibly because none will touch him, and those that would likely realize they will never get paid for what will eventually be one be-yatch of a case. Or perhaps he’s just dumb and crazy. Seth Abramson did a tweet-thread about the Page testimony (“I’m tweeting my responses while reading it” kind of thing) and before he was halfway done, Seth kind of lost it: "43/ I just… I mean… this man was brought on STAFF? By a PRESIDENTIAL campaign? To… _do_ things? Like, human things? In a…a… place? 44/ Sorry, it’s just…man, so much of this is incomprehensible. He doesn’t seem to fully appreciate where he is—or _why_ he is where he is. 45/ If this is an act—exquisite. At the same time, a person with these issues could act improperly, then “de-grid” that data in their head." > ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/577 "2017-11-07T13:55:16Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I wouldn’t shake Donald Trump’s hand without legal counsel. You’d have to find it, first. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/578 "2017-11-07T14:02:58Z")
Have we considered the possibility that Carter Page is the Kaiser Soze of this situation? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/579 "2017-11-07T14:27:48Z")
I’m about to go all Alex Jones here, but in a good way. [This CNN summary](http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/politics/carter-page-testimony-released/index.html) mentions tidbits of Page having meetings with Russian officials that were tied to efforts to repeal sanctions, but he made it sound like they were just friends hanging out. For example: > [@](#): > > Page said he spoke with Andrey Baranov, Rosneft’s head of investor relations. But he says that he doesn’t recall having any conversation with him about sanctions. He said he didn’t remember whether Baranov gave him any documents, though he said Baranov might have given him “an investor relations presentation” but “nothing more substantive than that.” Investor relations? How could a Russian mogul meet with an American liaison about “investor relations” and the subject of sanctions \*not \*come up? What else does investor relations cover? Then this: > [@](#): > > They made plans to meet up, Page said, because they were friends when he lived in Russia in the mid-2000s. Page lived in Russia for a few years while working as an energy consultant. Wait, he used to _live there?_ What does an “energy consultant” do? Provide data about non-Russian energy suppliers, look for potential customers outside Russia, and grease political palms, I assume. So 10 years later, he goes back to Russia to look up an old buddy who happens to be head of “investor relations.” What do they talk about that’s not job-related? > [@](#): > > A month after the election last year, Page met with Baranov and another Russian man, an unnamed banker with Bank of America and Merrill Lynch, for lunch at Goodman’s Steakhouse in Moscow. He said he showed them slides on his laptop from the speech he was about to give in Moscow, and they discussed the election’s results. Oh, he shares a speech he’s about to give in MOSCOW with an unnamed banking official who works for American bank branches in Russia, along with his old “investor relations” comrade. So totally innocent. How could Page be so oblivious that his Russian ties could potentially devastate US national security? Well, he did forget to bring a lawyer, so maybe he really is that dumb, and should be locked up for being a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Celidin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Celidin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celidin)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2017, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/580 "2017-11-07T14:34:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > …Seth Abramson did a tweet-thread about the Page testimony … > [x.com](https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/927710698611896320) Jesus. Abramson’s final couple tweets sum up that whole chain: > [@https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/927797554120622080](#): > > 109/ So, in sum: ~10 bombshells here, all of which should be major U.S. news. And Steele’s dossier gets a _massive_ increase in credibility. > > 110/ Countless WH lies were exposed. And Sessions/NatSec team lies. And Hope Hicks suddenly becomes a very interesting Trump-Russia witness. > > 111/ The picture of what happened between Trump and Russia is now getting _very_ clear despite it _still_ being early- to mid-investigation. > > 112/ What we saw in this transcript was enough scandal—proof of WH and Trump campaign lies—for 10 administrations. And Mueller knows _more_. > > [skipping 113/114] > > 115/ Today a great blow was struck against the Trump-Russia conspiracy—which is now _undeniable_, and will bring down this presidency. {end} I mean it’s pretty obvious from the transcript (among every other time he’s opened his yapper) that Carter Page can’t be trusted for almost anything that comes out of his mouth, but that’s pretty rich. Even if only a couple of the “bombshells” prove to be true, its devastating. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=30)