# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 306
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6102 "2018-08-01T15:46:01Z")
I’m just shocked that Mueller hasn’t even found a hint of Trump’s WMDs yet. I suppose its possible that Trump got confused and ate all the yellow cake. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6103 "2018-08-01T15:46:06Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Doesn’t matter how many charges, as long as they are all heard by the same jury. If it contains a Trump true-believer, he can just sit there mumbling “Fake news, Deep state, no collusion!” throughout the entire proceedings, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. On the other hand, the charges against Manafort in this particular proceeding apparently have almost nothing directly to do with his work for the Trump campaign, except for the possibility that Manafort was still running his little criminal enterprise while working for the campaign. I don’t pretend to know all the nuances here, but it seems like the biggest risk for Trump is not whether or not Manafort ends up convicted in this particular case, but whether or not any significant financial or operational links turn up between the campaign and Manafort’s enterprise while the case is being argued, and a hung jury won’t prevent that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6104 "2018-08-01T15:50:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > From what I’ve read, early indications are that Manafort’s defense is going to rest (primarily?) on two things. 1) that his complicated financial transactions were not done for nefarious purposes on his end but because the Russian oligarchs he dealt with did business that way, and 2) that Gates is the real villain, and he committed all sorts of crimes (including ripping off Manafort). Why that poor, poor Mr. Manafort; just trying to be friendly to the oligarchs and was powerless to avoid being victimized by the guy who worked for him. Just makes you want to wrap him up in a blankie and keep him warm and safe, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6105 "2018-08-01T15:53:20Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > On the other hand, the charges against Manafort in this particular proceeding apparently have almost nothing directly to do with his work for the Trump campaign, except for the possibility that Manafort was still running his little criminal enterprise while working for the campaign. > > I don’t pretend to know all the nuances here, but it seems like the biggest risk for Trump is not whether or not Manafort ends up convicted in this particular case, but whether or not any significant financial or operational links turn up between the campaign and Manafort’s enterprise while the case is being argued, and a hung jury won’t prevent that from happening. The biggest risk for Trump is that many people - including some in recent posts to this very thread - are confused by the issues here and assume that the charges against Manafort do relate to Trump-Russian collusion. The second biggest risk to Trump is that if Manafort is convicted it’s harder for Trump to make the case that Mueller is some rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. Basically, this trial is sort of a PR issue for Trump (and for Mueller, should he lose the case), but PR is a very real deal in politics. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6106 "2018-08-01T16:03:58Z")
Yeah, the idea that Russian influence in the Trump campaign might have anything to do with Trump’s Russian connected campaign manager is crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6107 "2018-08-01T16:04:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The biggest risk for Trump is that many people - including some in recent posts to this very thread - are confused by the issues here and assume that the charges against Manafort do relate to Trump-Russian collusion. > > The second biggest risk to Trump is that if Manafort is convicted it’s harder for Trump to make the case that Mueller is some rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. > > Basically, this trial is sort of a PR issue for Trump (and for Mueller, should he lose the case), but PR is a very real deal in politics. Why is it a mistake to connect manafort and 2016 election russian crimes? To ignore it would be a cover up at this point. (Of an ongoing investigation which is on that topic, to find if these connections exist) ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6108 "2018-08-01T16:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > establishing that Trump’s one-time campaign chief was heavily connected with Kremlin characters doesn’t prove conspiracy but it sure does bolster the credibility of the investigators and underscore how preposterous were denials of Russia ties - Jennifer Rubin [Link to Tweet](https://twitter.com/JRubinBlogger/status/1024676228538814465) ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6109 "2018-08-01T16:14:32Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Yeah, the idea that Russian influence in the Trump campaign might have anything to do with Trump’s Russian connected campaign manager is crazy talk. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > Why is it a mistake to connect manafort and 2016 election russian crimes? To ignore it would be a cover up at this point. (Of an ongoing investigation which is on that topic, to find if these connections exist) If there was collusion it would be logical to assume that Manafort might have been involved in it. But that doesn’t happen to be what this trial is about. (To the point that I believe both sides have agreed that collusion will not be mentioned at all in the trial.) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6110 "2018-08-01T16:30:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > [Someone doesn’t think this is funny anymore. “Make the mean man stop!”](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-calls-sessions-end-mueller-s-witch-hunt-n896481?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma) Trump seems to have forgotten that Sessions recused himself, and couldn’t stop the Mueller investigation even if he wanted to (unless he un-recuses himself, I guess). When did Mueller’s team expand to “17 Angry Democrats”? (was previously 13) Did he put a Help Wanted (Angry Democrats) sign in the window? And I assume his team is larger than 17 … does it have 17 Angry Democrats plus 14 Chill Democrats and 12 Republicans of Varying Temperaments? ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6111 "2018-08-01T16:32:52Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Why that poor, poor Mr. Manafort; just trying to be friendly to the oligarchs and was powerless to avoid being victimized by the guy who worked for him. Just makes you want to wrap him up in a blankie and keep him warm and safe, doesn’t it? I understand why these people always try this “hapless dipshit” defense when they get caught - but I think it’s almost as bad if true as if they just admitted outright that they’re evil masterminds and they just got unlucky one time. I mean, the defense is that he wanted to collect tens of millions of dollars and be powerful and influential, but all the time he was too naive to choose good personnel and too stupid to check for himself that everything was on the up and up? You know at the height of his power he would have reacted very negatively to the suggestion that he was some sort of ignorant empty suit being led around by the nose by Rick Gates. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6112 "2018-08-01T17:10:29Z")
Speaking of the good people at SDNY, apparently Mueller has referred a bunch of new cases to the G-men in the [big apple](https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/politics/mueller-investigation-foreign-agent-referrals-new-york/index.html). > [@CNN](#): > > Special counsel Robert Mueller has referred a collection of cases to New York federal prosecutors concerning whether several high-profile American lobbyists and operatives failed to register their work as foreign agents, according to people familiar with the matter. > > … > > Since the spring, Mueller has referred matters to SDNY involving longtime Democratic lobbyist Tony Podesta and his work for his former firm, the Podesta Group, and former Minnesota Republican Rep. Vin Weber and his work for Mercury Public Affairs, the sources said. > > One source said that former Obama White House counsel Greg Craig, a former partner at law firm Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP, is also part of the inquiry. Imagine having to go through life with a name like Greg Craig. And then you get indicted. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6113 "2018-08-01T17:13:09Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Imagine having to go through life with a name like Greg Craig. And then you get indicted. Right now I’m feeling bad for the receptionist who has to say “Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom” several times a day when answering the telephone. Go on - rattle that off a few times and you’ll see what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6114 "2018-08-01T17:15:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If there was collusion it would be logical to assume that Manafort might have been involved in it. But that doesn’t happen to be what this trial is about. (To the point that I believe both sides have agreed that collusion will not be mentioned at all in the trial.) Someone agrees not to mention the elephant in the room; therefore the elephant isn’t in the room? Man, I have to go dig up that Bush White House quote that criticizes liberals as being part of the reality-based community. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6115 "2018-08-01T17:16:10Z")
It’s commonly referred to as “Skadden Arps”. (It’s also one of the top law firms in the country, FWIW.) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6116 "2018-08-01T17:21:48Z")
There’s another Skadden connection: Alex van der Zwaan, who was sentenced to a month in the bighouse for lying to federal investigators about his relationship with Rick Gates. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6117 "2018-08-01T17:24:46Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The second biggest risk to Trump is that if Manafort is convicted it’s harder for Trump to make the case that Mueller is some rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. Do you think so? If Manafort is convicted I expect Trump to cite that as proof that Mueller is a rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6118 "2018-08-01T17:29:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Do you think so? If Manafort is convicted I expect Trump to cite that as proof that Mueller is a rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. And if Manafort is acquitted I expect Trump to cite that as proof that Mueller is a rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. Anyone want to guess what Trump will say about a hung jury? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6119 "2018-08-01T17:33:35Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > And if Manafort is acquitted I expect Trump to cite that as proof that Mueller is a rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt.\*\* Anyone want to guess what Trump will say about a hung jury?\*\* That they’re not hung as well as him? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6120 "2018-08-01T17:37:19Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Do you think so? If Manafort is convicted I expect Trump to cite that as proof that Mueller is a rogue prosecutor on a witch hunt. What’s important is not what Trump will say but how much it will resonate with the public at large. And when I say “the public at large” I don’t mean die-hard Trump people but the crucial middle-of-the-road people. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6121 "2018-08-01T17:49:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What’s important is not what Trump will say but how much it will resonate with the public at large. And when I say “the public at large” I don’t mean die-hard Trump people but the crucial middle-of-the-road people. I just don’t get this. How in the hell can ANYONE be ‘middle of the road’ when one side of the road leads to trump. WTF? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=305) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=307)