# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 307
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6122 "2018-08-01T17:56:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Man, I have to go dig up that Bush White House quote that criticizes liberals as being part of the reality-based community. It’s from a Ron Suskind column in the NYT Magazine. > [@Ron Suskind](#): > > The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6123 "2018-08-01T18:13:53Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Slovenia or Slovakia. In Melania’s case, Slovenia. And in Ivana’s Slovakia. There’s some kind of symmetry there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6124 "2018-08-01T18:17:31Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > … the charges against Manafort in this particular proceeding … Your wording suggests that there are other possible charges. When Manafort is acquitted will he be bound over for trial on other charges? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6125 "2018-08-01T18:38:30Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Your wording suggests that there are other possible charges. When Manafort is acquitted will he be bound over for trial on other charges? There’s a whole other criminal indictment waiting for him in the DC district. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6126 "2018-08-01T18:45:59Z")
this Paul manafort case seems like the kind of case that would be ripe for witness tampering. Lots of money, foreign agents, potential for death threats, what could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6127 "2018-08-01T19:15:49Z")
Why are people saying “when Manafort is acquitted?” I think there’ll be a revolving door at the end of the jury box and they’ll be back with a guilty verdict before the judge leaves the bench. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6128 "2018-08-01T20:30:51Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s from a Ron Suskind column in the NYT Magazine. > > > [@Ron Suskind](#): > > > > The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.” Source is Karl Rove, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6129 "2018-08-01T20:53:59Z")
Has anybody come up with a picture of Manafort’s $15,000 ostrich skin coat? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6130 "2018-08-01T20:58:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s commonly referred to as “Skadden Arps”. Poor forgotten Flom. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6131 "2018-08-01T21:06:02Z")
Where those late-name guys really get the shaft is in mergers. PWC = PriceWaterhouseCoopers was a merger of PriceWaterhouse and Coopers & Lybrand. Coopers made the cut - Lybrand didn’t. IIRC, in one of “Ted Nancy’s” _Letters from a Nut_, he was trying to market his product to Sears but asked at the end “Hey, whatever happened to Roebuck? You never hear of him anymore …” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6132 "2018-08-01T21:15:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > IIRC, in one of “Ted Nancy’s” _Letters from a Nut_, he was trying to market his product to Sears but asked at the end “Hey, whatever happened to Roebuck? You never hear of him anymore …” He’s been demoted to the shoe department. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6133 "2018-08-01T21:20:27Z")
On another note, perhaps some legal expert can comment on [this](https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/politics/manafort-trial-day-two/index.html): > [@CNN](#): > > Prosecutors also raised the prospect that Manafort’s longtime deputy, Rick Gates, would not be called as a witness after the defense team indicated in its opening statement Tuesday that Manafort’s lawyers planned to make Gates’ role a key element of the defense. > > Should Gates not testify as a witness for the prosecution, it would complicate the ability for Manafort’s team to make their case against Gates, and might prompt them to call him as a defense witness instead. What are the ramifications of Gates being called by the defense rather than the prosecution (since he would presumably say the same thing either way)? I would guess the prosecution would rather have him called by the defense since they would then have latitude to ask leading questions on cross examination - though since he’s cooperating with the prosecution perhaps the defense could have him declared as “hostile witness” and get that same latitude. But perhaps there’s more (or less) to it than that, and possibly someone knowledgeable can comment. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6134 "2018-08-01T21:37:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > On another note, perhaps some legal expert can comment on [this](https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/01/politics/manafort-trial-day-two/index.html):What are the ramifications of Gates being called by the defense rather than the prosecution (since he would presumably say the same thing either way)? I would guess the prosecution would rather have him called by the defense since they would then have latitude to ask leading questions on cross examination - though since he’s cooperating with the prosecution perhaps the defense could have him declared as “hostile witness” and get that same latitude. But perhaps there’s more (or less) to it than that, and possibly someone knowledgeable can comment. He’d still be a prosecution witness regardless of who calls him - you’re not limited to direct examination if you call one of the other sides’ witnesses in your case in chief. My guess as to what is going on is this: the defense has made it clear that their strategy is to hang the whole thing on Rick Gates. The government, then, might decide that they have enough other witnesses and evidence to convict Manafort even without Gates’ testimony. (Which, from their perspective, is probably true - they have a lot of documentary evidence and they brought charges against Manafort _and_ Gates originally, so they would have had to prove their case against both men without testimony from either if they’d both elected to go to trial.) Then, in their closing argument, they can argue that the idea that Gates was behind the whole thing is absurd because they didn’t even need to bring him into it to show that Manafort didn’t pay taxes on however much money of foreign bank accounts that he then used to buy exotic animal couture via suspicious wire transfers. And if Manafort elects to call Gates as a witness, he can still give whatever damning testimony he has. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6135 "2018-08-01T21:57:45Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Has anybody come up with a picture of Manafort’s $15,000 ostrich skin coat? [Presumably like this](https://theslot.jezebel.com/is-this-paul-manaforts-15-000-ostrich-skin-jacket-1828011336). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6136 "2018-08-02T01:45:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Your wording suggests that there are other possible charges. When Manafort is acquitted will he be bound over for trial on other charges? Right, as per **friedo** : > **[Paul Manafort's First Trial Is About to Start. Here's What You Need to Know](https://time.com/5352999/paul-manafort-trial/)** > > Trump's former campaign head faces tax and bank fraud charges. > [@](#): > > In September, Manafort is slated to face a second trial in Washington, D.C., on separate charges of money laundering and failure to register as a foreign agent. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6137 "2018-08-02T02:03:12Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > this Paul manafort case seems like the kind of case that would be ripe for witness tampering. Lots of money, foreign agents, potential for death threats, what could go wrong? Well, not sure there is that much scope for that, as much of the Fed’s case seems to be primarily based on documentation. Also according to reports I’ve read, the government plans to call 35 witnesses. Granted, Rick Gates appears to be the ‘star’, but that seems like a lot of tampering to be done. Did you mean jury tampering? That seems a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6138 "2018-08-02T02:04:08Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Right, as per **friedo** : > > [Paul Manafort's First Trial Is About to Start | TIME](http://time.com/5352999/paul-manafort-trial/) The feds offered Manafort the option to have all the charges heard at one trial, but he refused. (The DC court didn’t have venue over the offenses he’s currently being tried for, but that could be waived.) That’s his right, but personally I’d take the chance on a single trial - no point giving them two shots to nail you. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6139 "2018-08-02T02:19:09Z")
> [@romansperson](#): > > [Presumably like this](https://theslot.jezebel.com/is-this-paul-manaforts-15-000-ostrich-skin-jacket-1828011336). All those buckles are kinda kinky. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6140 "2018-08-02T02:47:31Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Has anybody come up with a picture of Manafort’s $15,000 ostrich skin coat? A CNN reporter tweeted a pic she says is of Manafort’s coat, according to a men’s clothier who testified today. > In some ways, it looks less horrible than the example posted upthread. But the cloth cuffs and waistband are straight out of a high school letter jacket. And overall it just looks plain. Is it really expensive to raise ostriches and prepare the hides? Honest question. I have no idea what goes into making ostrich leather. All the pictures I’ve seen of ostrich coats have a bunch of little holes that I presume are where the quills were when the ostrich was wearing it. That just creeps me the fuck out. I know I’m kind of squeamish about things like that, but still. Ugh. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6141 "2018-08-02T02:52:20Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > A CNN reporter tweeted a pic she says is of Manafort’s coat, according to a men’s clothier who testified today. > > [https://twitter.com/KaraScannell/status/1024798995733008386?s=19](https://twitter.com/KaraScannell/status/1024798995733008386?s=19) > > In some ways, it looks less horrible than the example posted upthread. But the cloth cuffs and waistband are straight out of a high school letter jacket. And overall it just looks plain. Is it really expensive to raise ostriches and prepare the hides? Honest question. I have no idea what goes into making ostrich leather. > > All the pictures I’ve seen of ostrich coats have a bunch of little holes that I presume are where the quills were when the ostrich was wearing it. That just creeps me the fuck out. I know I’m kind of squeamish about things like that, but still. Ugh. It looks like what you’d get if you made a jacket out of dyed chicken skin. All those quillbumps… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=306) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=308)