# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 313
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6242 "2018-08-07T22:04:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait, what? Never heard _that_ before. It would surely look like an unfair persecution to the Trumplumps. Hell, my darkly suspicious nature suggests they might be playing for exactly that! I’m sorry. I should have clarified: He can’t have his attorney present in the courtroom, but he can consult with his attorney outside the courtroom whenever he wishes. It means he has to stop the proceedings and go have his consultation. IOW, he’s not deprived of his right to consult with counsel. Do you think Trump is capable of that sort of self-control, once he gets the bit in his teeth and starts hate-raging from the stand? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6243 "2018-08-08T00:24:00Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’m sorry. I should have clarified: He can’t have his attorney present in the courtroom, but he can consult with his attorney outside the courtroom whenever he wishes. It means he has to stop the proceedings and go have his consultation. IOW, he’s not deprived of his right to consult with counsel. > > Do you think Trump is capable of that sort of self-control, once he gets the bit in his teeth and starts hate-raging from the stand? Not. A. Chance. (cf. Jack Nicholson references above) ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6244 "2018-08-08T19:34:35Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > He can’t have his attorney present in the courtroom, but he can consult with his attorney outside the courtroom whenever he wishes. It means he has to stop the proceedings and go have his consultation. It was my understanding that this was always the case with Grand Juries. Was I misinformed? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6245 "2018-08-08T19:59:02Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > It was my understanding that this was always the case with Grand Juries. Was I misinformed? No, not at all. You’re correct. That’s what makes Giuliani’s pretense that he can negotiate something different for Trump amusing. If Mueller issues a subpoena, it may take awhile but eventually (I believe) Mueller will prevail, and Trump will be ordered to testify before a grand jury. _Just like every other subject of an investigation before him._ As much as Giuliani wants to limit the scope of a private interview, I imagine if Mueller issues a subpoena, Giuliani will negotiate a private interview before the Supreme Court rules. Of course, if Mueller issues a subpoena, it also allows TrumpCo to continue to deride the investigation for months as we await the outcome. I think Trump is betting the farm on being able to influence public opinion against impeachment. I’m not sure that’s a very good bet. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6246 "2018-08-08T20:07:25Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I think Trump is betting the farm on being able to influence public opinion against impeachment. I’m not sure that’s a very good bet. But Trump could pardon everyone else, and he himself could only be brought down by impeachment. I can see why he thinks it’s a winning strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6247 "2018-08-08T20:13:33Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > But Trump could pardon everyone else, and he himself could only be brought down by impeachment. I can see why he thinks it’s a winning strategy. There is a lot of peril to Trump if he invokes pardon power for a corrupt purpose – which, to avoid his own personal prosecution/impeachment, it surely would be. He may think it’s a winning strategy. I think he’s wrong. One more thought: Mueller has _told_ Giuliani he will subpoena Trump if they can’t reach an agreement on an interview. I don’t think Mueller is the type to make idle threats. I’m expecting a subpoena. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6248 "2018-08-08T20:16:43Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > But Trump could pardon everyone else, and he himself could only be brought down by impeachment. I can see why he thinks it’s a winning strategy. For some definitions of “winning”, I guess. If the next 2 years bring us: every Trump aide or family member under indictment; Trump himself an “unindicted co-conspirator”; impeached by the new Democratic House, but clinging to office only by failure to reach the Senate conviction threshold (and a Democratic majority poised to take the Senate in 2020); subject to an unending stream of House-led investigations and allegations, and his every move thwarted: I’ll take it. And historians would rightly consider his presidency the worst disaster in our history. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6249 "2018-08-08T20:22:57Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > And historians would rightly consider his presidency the worst disaster in our history. There was something called the Civil War that might have been even worse. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6250 "2018-08-08T20:37:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There was something called the Civil War that might have been even worse. Fine… :rolleyes: Worst disaster that didn’t literally kill anyone. Most egregious constitutional calamity since McCarthyism. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6251 "2018-08-08T21:33:31Z")
I’m suddenly in the mood to watch _All the President’s Men_ again tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6252 "2018-08-08T21:47:04Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > There is a lot of peril to Trump if he invokes pardon power for a corrupt purpose – which, to avoid his own personal prosecution/impeachment, it surely would be. He may think it’s a winning strategy. I think he’s wrong. > > One more thought: Mueller has _told_ Giuliani he will subpoena Trump if they can’t reach an agreement on an interview. I don’t think Mueller is the type to make idle threats. > > I’m expecting a subpoena. I’ve been expecting a subpoena since February. I’m rather curious that they’ve actually been willing to get strung along on it so long. Maybe Mueller has figured that if team Trump wants to get slapped with a subpoena in October, during the midterms, rather than April then that’s their deal. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6253 "2018-08-08T22:28:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I’ve been expecting a subpoena since February. I’m rather curious that they’ve actually been willing to get strung along on it so long. > > Maybe Mueller has figured that if team Trump wants to get slapped with a subpoena in October, during the midterms, rather than April then that’s their deal. I figure Mueller’s approach is either one of two strategies: 1. He’s innoculating his subpoena against the inevitable criticism that he didn’t give Trump a chance to work out the scope for a private interview when he finally issues it, as he simultaneously plays for extra time; or 2. He doesn’t need Trump’s interview to proceed and is simply playing for extra time. Prosecuting attorneys seldom interview the targets of their investigations before issuing their indictments and/or undertaking their prosecution. The only reason Mueller has to listen to Trump is to give him (Trump) the opportunity to offer alternate explanations for what pretty clearly appears to be conspiracy/election fraud/witness tampering/obstruction, etc. And obviously if he (Trump) had any, he would have offered them by now. In a way, I think it’s both. I don’t think Mueller really needs Trump’s interview, but it’s a matter of principle. Plus it’s been nice to have the extra time to prepare his cases. I think he’ll issue the subpoena. Either way, if Mueller is going to move, he’ll do it before the first of September. Otherwise he’ll wait until after the mid-terms to avoid the inevitable criticism that he was pulling a Comey. Most of the US attorney types I’ve heard discussing the strategy seem to agree that whenever Mueller’s moves come, they will be unleashed all together – possibly with the exception of Trump’s subpoena. If he does things in dribs and drabs, it will be much easier for Trump to fight, issuing one little pardon at a time. But if he executes on all his indictments/arrests simultaneously, the overwhelming nature of his actions stop Trump from issuing dozens of pardons – because the intent of such an abuse of Trump’s power becomes painfully apparent. Even a dedicated Republican Senate may have some trouble pretending to ignore it. Or maybe I’mma just wishful thinkin’. But oh, I hope it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6254 "2018-08-08T22:41:01Z")
That’s all we got, because Mueller is pissing me off by doing exactly what I would expect from an iron-ass straight arrow tighty righty. If only an enema would save his life, they’d have to do it with a hypodermic needle. He might be thinking what you suggest, he might be thinking he’ll have a run at Ru Paul’s drag show, he might be thinking he’ll paint his butt blue and move to the country! I would hope that if he becomes (or already is) convinced of perfidy and skulduggery, he will let us in on it before we have to vote. Is there a point where duty overwhelms propriety? For a guy like me, an easy question, for a guy like him, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6255 "2018-08-08T22:49:57Z")
I’m constantly amazed at how few leaks there have been from the Mueller team. In fact, have there been _any_? Everyone on the outside speculates and pontificates, some of the people being investigated leak information, and Mueller’s team just keeps their mouths shut until–whammo!–court filings. It’s pretty remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6256 "2018-08-08T22:53:34Z")
Don’t you think Trump’s own actions speak loudly enough as to whether there is perfidy and skulduggery? If he has nothing to hide, then: Why obstruct at every opportunity? Why fire Comey? Why write an explanation for your son about a meeting you claim to have never attended? Why hide your tax returns? Why fret to Lindsey Graham “at least 20 times” on the golf course about the Russia investigation? Why lie about, oh, you know, _everything_? The majority of Americans understand what it all means. I know you do, too. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6257 "2018-08-08T23:42:02Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Why lie about, oh, you know, _everything_? I’m pretty sure Trump lies about everything because he lies about everything. It’s compulsive by now. The rest, though - yep, he’s guilty as sin. Actually he makes sin look innocent by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6258 "2018-08-09T02:35:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There was something called the Civil War that might have been even worse. The implications and stakes for our long-term health both as a nation and a species are _much_ more dire w.r.t. Trump than they where 150 years ago. We came through the Civil War in pretty decent shape all told (yes I am fully aware of Reconstruction’s failures of nerve). ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6259 "2018-08-09T02:35:39Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’m suddenly in the mood to watch _All the President’s Men_ again tonight. 44 years ago today, Nixon resigned. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6260 "2018-08-09T02:44:46Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’m suddenly in the mood to watch _All the President’s Men_ again tonight. > [@jasg](#): > > 44 years ago today, Nixon resigned. Ah, I thought I felt a hiccup in The Force. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6261 "2018-08-09T17:19:17Z")
> [@Defensive\_Indifference](#): > > I’m constantly amazed at how few leaks there have been from the Mueller team. In fact, have there been _any_? Everyone on the outside speculates and pontificates, some of the people being investigated leak information, and Mueller’s team just keeps their mouths shut until–whammo!–court filings. It’s pretty remarkable. Imagine that, professionals who are doing their job and _just_ their job, not keeping an eye on future book sales or trying to get political points in early on people they dislike. It’s not remarkable – it’s uncanny! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=312) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=314)