# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 325
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6482 "2018-08-18T17:55:20Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Wanted to add to this. > > Re the security clearances, he’s clearly sending a message to the currently serving civil service employees who staff these various agencies. He underestimated the strength of the cultures in the civilian & military federal workforce and the fact that they really actually do care about things like integrity, informing the public, promoting public interest, and exposing corruption, and this is almost to a man/woman on a bipartisan basis. He has found out that just replacing the head of the EPA, NOAA, the Park Service, the BLS, the Department of State, Department of Defense, Department of Justice doesn’t change one bit the determination of people who were hired with the understanding that they do their job, regardless of party affiliation. Sure there are exceptions, but the culture generally frowns upon partisan hackery. Trump is trying to intimidate the hundreds of thousands of employees whose motto is ‘next man/woman up.’ **Goddamn right he’s desperate. He now knows what he’s up against.** > > That being said, given enough time, he can seriously injure these institutions. They’re already being seriously injured. You’ve got good career people at the senior levels who are leaving in droves. And the hiring in these departments has, in some cases, slowed. Given enough time, he can certainly impact the culture, even if he can’t change it so easily. He can make people fear for their careers and their jobs. Worst of all, he can make working for the federal workforce, and the government that serves the taxpayer, an unappealing place for talented people, which could mean that over time these jobs are filled by people who are less competent or even less desirable, just so certain offices can keep functioning. That’s one thing that’s at stake here, though it’s obviously deeper than that. Bolding mine. So who told him what he’s up against? Putin? Trump surely couldn’t connect those dots. No fucking way. Who is telling him to take security clearance away? He is truly a moron. This ‘man’ doesn’t know the difference between agent orange and napalm. And could not be corrected or swayed by Vietnam vets. This is a ‘man’ that would insist that his plumber use nails to connect pipes together, cause nails are strong. Can anyone name any person in the public eye that is as clueless as trump is? ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6483 "2018-08-18T17:56:40Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > There’s a lot riding on this case. If Mueller’s team scores convictions on most of these counts, then they get major momentum going into the next case, which will be held in the District of Columbia. I think what Trump is hoping for is a hung jury on all (more realistically most) counts so that he can claim that Mueller’s investigation’s going nowhere. That could, in his mind, give him justification for ending the investigation - “the people have spoken” kind of rationale. Agreed. I’m beginning to think the Manafort trial might end in a hung jury with a true believer Trumpest being the one vote against conviction on all counts. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6484 "2018-08-18T18:23:16Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Agreed. I’m beginning to think the Manafort trial might end in a hung jury with a true believer Trumpest being the one vote against conviction on all counts. If it’s one - and only one - Trumpist juror, maybe he caves on one or more of the charges. The power of group peer pressure and a foreman might compel a holdout to concede some ground. But if there’s more than one…if we’re talking about one or two Trump Maga-bot diehards, and if in addition to that there are one or two more who might not be so diehard but are Trump “leaners” who are skeptical of some aspects of this trial, then we might have a problem on our hands. I’m also wondering why there has been no apparent sequestration in this trial - like why not? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6485 "2018-08-18T18:33:20Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Bolding mine. So who told him what he’s up against? Putin? Trump surely couldn’t connect those dots. No fucking way. Who is telling him to take security clearance away? > > He is truly a moron. This ‘man’ doesn’t know the difference between agent orange and napalm. And could not be corrected or swayed by Vietnam vets. This is a ‘man’ that would insist that his plumber use nails to connect pipes together, cause nails are strong. > > Can anyone name any person in the public eye that is as clueless as trump is? He’s a moron in many ways, but not when it comes to manipulating people and not when it comes to power. Authoritarians are constantly challenging power, constantly testing and probing to see weaknesses in the systems that confine them. What he knows is that the system is not going to break with simply firing one or two people; it’s increasingly dawning on him that if he fires one person, the next man up or the next woman up is going to be cut from the same cloth as the person he just tossed overboard. He fired Comey, and got McCabe. He fired them both and got Chris Wray. He fired Preet Bharara and he’s now stuck with prosecutors who are just as vigilant as Bharara was. He’s revoked Brennan’s security clearance and threatened to do the same with others, and he ended up getting even more fierce criticism from Gen. McRaven. And he knows that for every McRaven, for every Bharara, for every Comey, McCabe or Wray, there are many more behind them. Trump knows now that he’s in some deep shit. But contrary to what we might wish to believe, this realization is also what is going to make him even more dangerous than he has ever been before. Trump is not going to back down or shy away; he will escalate to match the threat level he perceives himself facing. And moreover, he knows that he has an entire political party, many mega-donors, and 40% of voters standing firmly behind him. Even as the majority of people overall are repulsed by Trump, he knows that his opponents don’t necessarily stand united with each other, whereas he knows his legions of right wing extremism are bound by an increasingly toxic level of animosity and contempt toward democratic norms that underlie our politics and society. In short, as the walls of justice begin to close in on him, he’s going to resort to behavior that is ever increasingly extreme and outrageous. And his supporters will defend him, because they realize that their worldview is in the minority as well and don’t trust normal democratic mechanisms to defend their vision of what they believe this country should be. Authoritarianism almost always begins with consent, and he’s getting it from about 40% of the people. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6487 "2018-08-18T18:50:07Z")
> [@salman](#): > > I got you what you are looking for. I recommend to read this precaustion and do what early you can do > Get the treatment of many diseases include: Neuromas, Nonhealing Wounds, Osteoarthritis – All Foot and Ankle Joints, Patellar Tendonitis, Pes Anserine Bursitis, Plantar Fasciitis, Rheumatoid Arthritis using Stem Cell Therapy at phoenix. > #StemCellTherapy #R3StemCell #USA #Disease > > See More: [R3 @ Extremity Health Centers | Foot Ankle Stem Cell Phoenix](https://r3stemcell.com/phoenix-az/foot-and-ankle/) Strange time of day for it, but: Reported. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6488 "2018-08-18T19:22:09Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Re the security clearances, he’s clearly sending a message to the currently serving civil service employees who staff these various agencies. … I don’t think Trump is intellectually developed enough to do something as sophisticated as “send messages.” I think he just lashes out. People piss him off, he hits back. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6489 "2018-08-18T19:22:59Z")
Huh. [White House Counsel Has Cooperated Extensively With Mueller’s Obstruction Inquiry](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/us/politics/don-mcgahn-mueller-investigation.html) > [@](#): > > The White House counsel, Donald F. McGahn II, has cooperated extensively in the special counsel investigation, sharing detailed accounts about the episodes at the heart of the inquiry into whether President Trump obstructed justice, including some that investigators would not have learned of otherwise, according to a dozen current and former White House officials and others briefed on the matter. > > In at least three voluntary interviews with investigators that totaled 30 hours over the past nine months, Mr. McGahn described the president’s furor toward the Russia investigation and the ways in which he urged Mr. McGahn to respond to it. He provided the investigators examining whether Mr. Trump obstructed justice a clear view of the president’s most intimate moments with his lawyer. > > … > > Mr. McGahn’s cooperation began in part as a result of a decision by Mr. Trump’s first team of criminal lawyersto collaborate fullywith Mr. Mueller. The president’s lawyers have explained that they believed their client had nothing to hide and that they could bring the investigation to an end quickly. > > … > Mr. McGahn and his lawyer, William A. Burck, could not understand why Mr. Trump was so willing to allow Mr. McGahn to speak freely to the special counsel and feared Mr. Trump was setting up Mr. McGahn to take the blame for any possible illegal acts of obstruction, according to people close to him. So he and Mr. Burck devised their own strategy to do as much as possible to cooperate with Mr. Mueller to demonstrate that Mr. McGahn did nothing wrong. > … > > But the two rarely speak one on one — the White House chief of staff, John F. Kelly, and other advisers are usually present for their meetings — and Mr. Trump has questioned Mr. McGahn’s loyalty. In turn, Mr. Trump’s behavior has so exasperated Mr. McGahn that he has called the president “King Kong” behind his back, to connote his volcanic anger, people close to Mr. McGahn said. Sounds like McGahn is this series’s John Dean, _and_ we have a new insult Dotard’s inner staff has bestowed upon him. “King Kong is a fucking moron” does have a nice ring to it… ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6490 "2018-08-18T19:55:25Z")
Hmmmm… Just hazarding a guess, but this might could mebbe possibly just a chance go slightly not well for our “president.” He never could tell the difference between his own personal attorney and the White House Counsel. Probably said all kinds of self-incriminating things. Kind of makes that Trump interview with Mueller superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6491 "2018-08-18T21:11:33Z")
Lol, this line: > [@](#): > > according to a person with knowledge of his (McGahn’s) thinking. (Parentheses mine.) I mean, gosh! Whoever could it be? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6492 "2018-08-18T21:36:37Z")
I think this was my favorite bit in the NY Times article: > [@](#): > > “It was an extraordinary cooperation — more cooperation than in any major case — no president has ever been more cooperative than this,” Mr. Dowd said, adding that Mr. Mueller knew as far back as October, when he received many White House documents, that the president did not break the law. > > As the months passed on, it became apparent that Mr. McGahn and Mr. Burck had overestimated the amount of thought that they believed the president put into his legal strategy. Oops. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6493 "2018-08-18T21:38:00Z")
The head-scratcher for me is: how does it come to pass that this aspect of the story is being revealed to the NYT _now_? Is McGahn about to get canned? Who is behind this revelation? The only thing I can be sure of is that it isn’t Mueller and co. I wonder how it will be spun when it hits Fox: _Disloyal WH Counsel Snitches to Mueller for Thirty Hours!_ ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6494 "2018-08-18T22:00:06Z")
I think we’ve known the broad outlines of the story for some time. IOW, we knew McGahn had been extensively interviewed by Mueller’s team, at a time when the Trump “strategy” was to cooperate fully with the Mueller investigation as encouraged by the Dowd/Cobb team based on Trump’s representations that he, Trump, had done nothing wrong. What’s new is that McGahn spilled every bean, believing that Trump was trying to make him, McGahn, take the hit for any obstruction charges. To McGahn’s credit, he did entreat Trump to claim executive privilege, but Dowd/Cobb prevailed and waived it. That got McGahn and his lawyer to wondering why Trump was being so cooperative. They concluded that Trump was engineering a “fall guy” attack on McGahn. Dowd claims in the article that Mueller’s team “snookered” Trump. I think Mueller’s team snookered Dowd/Cobb. But of course, if you have an innocent client, your best strategy _is_ to cooperate. Trump probably wants to fire McGahn in the worst way. But McGahn has powerful support from Republicans in Congress and so is likely safe at least until after Kavanaugh’s confirmation process. As usual, the Times story is well sourced. My understanding is that twelve sources supported the contentions made in the article. I am sure none of them came from the Mueller team, so probably White House sources familiar with the situation provided the confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6495 "2018-08-18T22:03:04Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I don’t think Trump is intellectually developed enough to do something as sophisticated as “send messages.” I think he just lashes out. People piss him off, he hits back. This. When he started getting tangled up with the Russian mob 30 years ago, perhaps he kinda knew what was going on. Though I think that even at that time he thought he was pulling the strings. Now, with nothing but pudding between his ears, he just gets angry and lashes out. I doubt very much he knows anything about security clearances other than it’s something he can take away. SOMEONE put that idea in what is left of his brain. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6496 "2018-08-18T22:21:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Huh. > > [White House Counsel Has Cooperated Extensively With Mueller’s Obstruction Inquiry](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/us/politics/don-mcgahn-mueller-investigation.html) > > Sounds like McGahn is this series’s John Dean, _and_ we have a new insult Dotard’s inner staff has bestowed upon him. “King Kong is a fucking moron” does have a nice ring to it… Apparently, [John Dean](https://twitter.com/JohnWDean/status/1030904135799910400) agrees. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6497 "2018-08-18T23:04:35Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Trump probably wants to fire McGahn in the worst way. Out of a cannon? But a worse way than that would be to tie McGahn to a wheelchair and make him stay up all night watching footage of Trump at his rallies, then as dawn approaches, wheel McGahn up to the Presidential bedroom so he could watch Trump rage-tweet while on the can, then make McGahn watch Trump take his morning shower. _Then_ fire him. That would be the worst way. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6498 "2018-08-18T23:23:50Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Out of a cannon? > > But a worse way than that would be to tie McGahn to a wheelchair and make him stay up all night watching footage of Trump at his rallies, then as dawn approaches, wheel McGahn up to the Presidential bedroom so he could watch Trump rage-tweet while on the can, then make McGahn watch Trump take his morning shower. _Then_ fire him. > > That would be the worst way. You have a sick and twisted imagination. I just lost my appetite for supper, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6499 "2018-08-18T23:27:11Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Out of a cannon? > > But a worse way than that would be to tie McGahn to a wheelchair and make him stay up all night watching footage of Trump at his rallies, then as dawn approaches, wheel McGahn up to the Presidential bedroom so he could watch Trump rage-tweet while on the can, then make McGahn watch Trump take his morning shower. _Then_ fire him. > > That would be the worst way. And by take his morning shower, I assume you mean _make_ his morning shower… which, if he is true to form, would be a golden one all over McGahn. _Then_ fire him. Probably going to be a little awkward at Monday morning meetings going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6500 "2018-08-19T00:22:07Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Dowd claims in the article that Mueller’s team “snookered” Trump. I think Mueller’s team snookered Dowd/Cobb. Yeah. It was Dowd’s specific job to make sure that his client, Trump, wasn’t being snookered. But it all started with Trump snookering Dowd into believing that Donald was an innocent bystander. Also, this part here - > [@](#): > > … Mr. Dowd said, adding that Mr. Mueller knew as far back as October, when he received many White House documents, that the president did not break the law. There is no way that Dowd is any position to know how the White House documents fit into Mueller’s many other documents. Dowd is blowing smoke up his own ass if he thinks truly thinks that Mueller has mentally cleared Donald in this investigation. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6501 "2018-08-19T04:35:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Huh. > > [White House Counsel Has Cooperated Extensively With Mueller’s Obstruction Inquiry](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/us/politics/don-mcgahn-mueller-investigation.html) > > Sounds like McGahn is this series’s John Dean, _and_ we have a new insult Dotard’s inner staff has bestowed upon him. “King Kong is a fucking moron” does have a nice ring to it… Maggie Wheeler of [emptywheel](https://www.emptywheel.net) has an interesting take on this. [WHY WOULD DON MCGAHN (AND HIS LAWYER) COOPERATE IN A PIECE CLAIMING HE COOPERATED WITH MUELLER (ON OBSTRUCTION)?](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/08/18/why-would-don-mcgahn-and-his-lawyer-cooperate-in-a-piece-claiming-he-cooperated-with-mueller-on-obstruction/) ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6502 "2018-08-19T14:05:39Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Maggie Wheeler of [emptywheel](https://www.emptywheel.net) has an interesting take on this. > > [WHY WOULD DON MCGAHN (AND HIS LAWYER) COOPERATE IN A PIECE CLAIMING HE COOPERATED WITH MUELLER (ON OBSTRUCTION)?](https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/08/18/why-would-don-mcgahn-and-his-lawyer-cooperate-in-a-piece-claiming-he-cooperated-with-mueller-on-obstruction/) Interesting perspective. I’m convinced (I’m easy that way) One question though; if McGahn’s and Trump’s usefulness to the GOP is their court stacking willingness/ability, then why is Pence not just as useful. What makes Trump, who seems to be somewhat of a liability, unique or what makes Pence undesirable? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=324) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=326)