# A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093 "2017-10-28T20:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 331
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6603 "2018-08-21T23:32:59Z")
I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6604 "2018-08-21T23:41:21Z")
Some of things Manafort was convicted of overlap with his time acting as Trump’s campaign manager, IIRC. > [@](#): > > Manafort received loans from the Federal Savings Bank after one of its executives sought a position in the Trump campaign and administration, according to prosecutors. The Cohen matter is of course far more serious, because Cohen was far deeper in the Trump inner circle for considerably longer, and knows far, far more incriminating stuff. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6605 "2018-08-21T23:44:14Z")
“an ex-campaign manager” As though he was an old high school girlfriend. That’s _adorable_! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6606 "2018-08-21T23:48:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. > > The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. A group of jurors, across all walks of life, concluded that Donald Trump’s campaign chairman engaged in financial and political crimes. That might not move the needle for the hardcore, never-say-die Trumpists, but it chips away at his base of support. The investigation just got a little less “fake” and a little bit more “real”. Bear in mind, there’s another Manafort trial next month, and this one has about 3X as much evidence – in a jurisdiction that is probably even less friendly to MAGA In tandem with Trump’s right hand man agreeing to work with the feds, I would say that today was a disastrous day for Trump. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6607 "2018-08-21T23:49:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. (1) It gives the special counsel leverage to get Manafort to say what he knows about matters more relevant to Trump in return for leniency. (2) It further shows how “I hire the best people” really seems to mean, “I have an amazing talent of finding the most corrupt, vile, self-serving rich people to work for me.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6608 "2018-08-21T23:55:06Z")
Can you imagine what Fox News would be doing with this news if it had been Obama’s ex-campaign manager found guilty of eight counts of tax and bank fraud? If Obama had made hush money payments to porn stars for affairs he had while married, and if Obama’s personal lawyer pleaded guilty for having made those payments on Obama’s orders? Fox News anchors’ heads would literally explode. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6609 "2018-08-21T23:55:11Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > (1) It gives the special counsel leverage to get Manafort to say what he knows about matters more relevant to Trump in return for leniency. > > (2) It further shows how “I hire the best people” really seems to mean, “I have an amazing talent of finding the most corrupt, vile, self-serving rich people to work for me.” In Trump’s world, those are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6610 "2018-08-21T23:58:35Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. > > The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. Trump’s campaign manager, of the campaign accused of conspiring with Russia, is facing life in prison. I don’t see how it’s possible to not see how there is an impact on trump. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6611 "2018-08-21T23:59:26Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Can you imagine what Fox News would be doing with this news if it had been Obama’s ex-campaign manager found guilty of eight counts of tax and bank fraud? If Obama had made hush money payments to porn stars for affairs he had while married, and if Obama’s personal lawyer pleaded guilty for having made those payments on Obama’s orders? > > Fox News anchors’ heads would literally explode. I think it’s this that disgusts me most of all. The slippery, slimy, hypocritical, non-ethical “morality” of those who have followed Trump over a cliff. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6612 "2018-08-22T00:02:50Z")
As I’m watching the news I keep thinking it’s Friday. I hope I don’t forget to go to work tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![aurora\_maire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aurora_maire/32/328_2.png) [@aurora\_maire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurora_maire)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6613 "2018-08-22T00:07:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. > > The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. A lot of Manafort’s crimes are related to his owing money to Russian oligarchs. As campaign manager he offered private briefings on the campaign to help “get whole” with one of them, Oleg Deripaska. He’s in deep with them and more than likely has a lot of info on how they worked the campaign. [Manafort and Deripaska](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/emails-suggest-manafort-sought-approval-from-putin-ally-deripaska/541677/) ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6614 "2018-08-22T00:17:51Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. It establishes Manafort’s character before Donald hired him. Mueller’s going about this like it’s a mob trial. He’s rolling up the side characters first. In his next trial, Manafort’s going in as a convicted felon. Also, if Donald pardons Manafort, then a) Manafort could be compelled to testify against Donald, since accepting a pardon is admitting guilt and b) it leaves Donald open to abuse of power charges in any upcoming impeachment. (Abuse of power was one of the proposed charges against Nixon, recall). > [@](#): > > The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. I would agree, in that Cohen has directly implicated Trump by claiming that he knowingly committed crimes at Trump’s direction. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6615 "2018-08-22T00:20:29Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > As I’m watching the news I keep thinking it’s Friday. I hope I don’t forget to go to work tomorrow. I know. I made a reference earlier in this thread to what has happened “this week,” then belatedly realized it’s only Tuesday. Maybe I’ll drink tonight like it’s Friday. A day worthy of celebration! ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6616 "2018-08-22T00:30:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. > > The Cohen stuff, if corroborated, seems much more serious to me. Many of the Manafort’s charges related to money he had received from his largely under the table work in Ukraine for a Putin/Russia backed presidential candidate in a horribly nasty election, nastier by several orders of magnitude than our nastiest US election. And it goes to the fact that when Manafort was in desperate financial straits, he made the decision to work for Donald Trump for free. A decision that was never questioned by the Trump campaign. And there have been hints that offered inside information to an oligarch. An oligarch that he owed a lot of money to. Because by now there’s really no question that people on the campaign colluded or at least attempted to collude. And it seems he accepted free services from a lot of shady characters with ulterior motives, So at this point the best outcome for Trump would be that he is cleared of personal wrongdoing. Because he’s a dottering senile fool that is so susceptible to flattery that he let a Russian intelligence operation infiltrate his campaign. #MAGA ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6617 "2018-08-22T00:39:04Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > It establishes Manafort’s character before Donald hired him. Mueller’s going about this like it’s a mob trial. Makes sense, given that the ultimate target paid the Feds 10 million bucks in fines for a money laundering scheme involving [the Mafiya](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheMafiya). ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6618 "2018-08-22T00:52:05Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Can you imagine what Fox News would be doing with this news if it had been Obama’s ex-campaign manager found guilty of eight counts of tax and bank fraud? If Obama had made hush money payments to porn stars for affairs he had while married, and if Obama’s personal lawyer pleaded guilty for having made those payments on Obama’s orders? > > Fox News anchors’ heads would literally explode. So you’re saying that if we persuade Obama to start an affair with a gay Muslim immigrant pornstar or such, we’ll be rid of Fox News talking heads? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6619 "2018-08-22T00:57:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I can’t stand Trump, but I have a hard time seeing how the conviction of an ex-campaign manager on tax and banking charges stemming from a time before he had anything to do with Trump should have any impact on Trump at all. Please explain. OK. The connections to Trump are tangential, at best; and no one here is claiming anything to the contrary. But there are 2: the Manafort conviction is embarrassing to Trump, as it indicates his willingness to surround himself with crooks, sleazebags and low-lifes. And it bolsters Mueller’s credibility – an acquittal would have been devastating, and would have allowed Trump to crow about “Mueller witch hunt” forever…so that is a bullet dodged. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6620 "2018-08-22T01:01:19Z")
I guess everyone’s moved on from Manafort decision, but I wonder what people think of this? Must’ve been a strange jury room. It’s hard to see how you convict him on bank fraud but let him go on conspiracy to commit bank fraud. I wonder if a juror was “allergic” to convicting on conspiracy charges, because “conspiracy” rhymes with “collusion”? Or maybe they just disliked/distrusted Gates so much that they convicted on fraud based on documentary evidence but ignored testimony to conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6621 "2018-08-22T01:03:36Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Also, if Donald pardons Manafort, then a) Manafort could be compelled to testify against Donald, since accepting a pardon is admitting guilt I’ve read conflicting opinions on this. First, Manafort’s testimony could potentially disclose other unknown, non-pardoned offences, including potentially state offenses, so even if accepting a pardon were admittance of guilt he couldn’t be compelled to testify–he could still claim the 5th. Second, there appears to be disagreement among top law professors whether accepting a pardon is actually admitting guilt. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093/6622 "2018-08-22T01:07:34Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Because by now there’s really no question that people on the campaign colluded or at least attempted to collude. It is spelled “conspired”, which is a crime unlike “collusion”. I’ve heard that some people pronounce it “treason.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=330) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-1/800093.md?page=332)